Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register.
Jul 23rd, 2019, 12:45pm

Home Home Help Help Search Search Members Members Login Login Register Register
Arimaa Forum « Move 35 »


   Arimaa Forum
   Team Games
   2007 One vs TheMob
(Moderators: supersamu, RonWeasley)
   Move 35
« Previous topic | Next topic »
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6  7 Reply Reply Notify of replies Notify of replies Send Topic Send Topic Print Print
   Author  Topic: Move 35  (Read 6526 times)
warren
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #2145

   


Gender: male
Posts: 144
Re: Move 35
« Reply #45 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 1:38am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Jun 24th, 2008, 1:01am, 99of9 wrote:

Then I would answer:
38b rh7s rh6s rh5s rh4s
and now we have two strong goal attacks.

 
We have two goal attacks but I don't think that's enough to make up for being lost materially since he appears to be able to prevent us from actually scoring. For example:
 
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s
37w rc4s rc3x Dd4w Eb3e hb2n
37b rd5e re5s re4s re3s
38w Ec3e hb3e hc3x Ed3e Rg1w
 
38b rh7s rh6s rh5s rh4s
39w Rf1e He1e Rc1e Rd1e
39b dg3s dg2n Rg1n rh3s
40w Ee3w re2n Rd2e Hf1e
40b Re2w ef2w re3e rf3s
41w Rb1e Rc1e Re1e Rd1e
41b ee2n Re1n rc8w cc7w
42w Rf1w Hg1w rf2n Hf1n
IP Logged
99of9
Forum Guru
*****




Gnobby's creator (player #314)

  toby_hudson  


Gender: male
Posts: 1412
Re: Move 35
« Reply #46 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 2:59am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Jun 24th, 2008, 1:38am, warren wrote:
We have two goal attacks but I don't think that's enough to make up for being lost materially since he appears to be able to prevent us from actually scoring.

Following your query, I've played it out against bomb (30s = 11-13 ply) a few times, and won them all, but sometimes it's a long sequence of moves, and I can't be sure bomb is playing optimally.
 
I suggest that a few others play around with these goal threats.  This could be a crucial line.
 
Quote:

35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s
37w rc4s rc3x Dd4w Eb3e hb2n
37b rd5e re5s re4s re3s
38w Ec3e hb3e hc3x Ed3e Rg1w
38b rh7s rh6s rh5s rh4s
39w Rf1e He1e Rc1e Rd1e
39b dg3s dg2n Rg1n rh3s
40w Ee3w re2n Rd2e Hf1e

 
I would reply
40b ef2s Rg2w Rf2n Rf3x ef1n
gaining material and maintaining a goal threat.
 
[Edit: I can't believe I'm arguing about what might happen 44 steps ahead!! This is incredible (but important).]
« Last Edit: Jun 24th, 2008, 3:16am by 99of9 » IP Logged
99of9
Forum Guru
*****




Gnobby's creator (player #314)

  toby_hudson  


Gender: male
Posts: 1412
Re: Move 35
« Reply #47 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 3:56am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Jun 24th, 2008, 1:38am, warren wrote:

35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s
37w rc4s rc3x Dd4w Eb3e hb2n
37b rd5e re5s re4s re3s
38w Ec3e hb3e hc3x Ed3e Rg1w
 
38b rh7s rh6s rh5s rh4s
39w Rf1e He1e Rc1e Rd1e
39b dg3s dg2n Rg1n rh3s
40w Ee3w re2n Rd2e Hf1e
...

 
I played bomb with longer time controls (3-4 min) and lost one.  Bomb deviated from Warren's line here:
40w Dc4e Dd4e De4e Ee3e
 
can anyone else play from here and win, or do we have to deviate earlier?
IP Logged
RonWeasley
Forum Moderator
Forum Guru
*****




Harry's friend (Arimaa player #441)

   


Gender: male
Posts: 882
Re: Move 35
« Reply #48 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 4:02am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Jun 23rd, 2008, 12:28pm, warren wrote:
I wonder where RonWeasley is? A fresh pair of eyes would be nice, and also in a few days we'll need him to move...

 
I'm here.  It's just that I didn't log in this weekend and I'm way behind on this discussion.
IP Logged
Soter
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #2381

   
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 138
Re: Move 35
« Reply #49 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 4:36am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

I can't play it against Bomb now and I think even these two potential goal threats may eventually get blocked, leaving us with a weakened position. There is one thing, however, that may be interesting:
 
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e  
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w  
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s  
37w rc4s rc3x Dd4w Eb3e hb2n  
37b dg3s Rg1w dg2s rg6s
 
What do you think about this 37b? Isn't it a slightly tougher nut to crack for Jean? IMO it's rather hard to kill our H and then rush to save the f3 quadrant...
 
I swear I'd help you guys if I wasn't busy. After the coming Saturday this game will be one of my priorities.
IP Logged
jdb
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #214

   


Gender: male
Posts: 682
Re: Move 35
« Reply #50 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 4:43am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Jun 24th, 2008, 3:56am, 99of9 wrote:

 
I played bomb with longer time controls (3-4 min) and lost one.  Bomb deviated from Warren's line here:
40w Dc4e Dd4e De4e Ee3e
 
can anyone else play from here and win, or do we have to deviate earlier?

 
40b rg6s rg5s dg3e Rg2n
IP Logged
99of9
Forum Guru
*****




Gnobby's creator (player #314)

  toby_hudson  


Gender: male
Posts: 1412
Re: Move 35
« Reply #51 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 4:48am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Jun 24th, 2008, 4:36am, Soter wrote:

35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e  
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w  
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s  
37w rc4s rc3x Dd4w Eb3e hb2n  
37b dg3s Rg1w dg2s rg6s

This is a good option to look at.  I think it would continue:
38w Dc4e Dd4e De4e Df4e
 
Quote:
I swear I'd help you guys if I wasn't busy. After the coming Saturday this game will be one of my priorities.

You've already helped a fair bit with this move, and this post is more good help.  I suspect we will still be on this move this weekend.
IP Logged
Soter
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #2381

   
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 138
Re: Move 35
« Reply #52 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 4:56am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

Quote:
This is a good option to look at.  I think it would continue:  
38w Dc4e Dd4e De4e Df4e

 
Yet another fresh idea for 37b ( but this one might be too risky )
 
37b dg3s Rg1w dg2s rd5s
 
Now our rabbit serves as a kind of obstacle; gold dog needs an additional step when moving east and won't be able to reach g4. Haven't checked what happens later tho.
 
 
« Last Edit: Jun 24th, 2008, 4:57am by Soter » IP Logged
RonWeasley
Forum Moderator
Forum Guru
*****




Harry's friend (Arimaa player #441)

   


Gender: male
Posts: 882
Re: Move 35
« Reply #53 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 8:59am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Jun 24th, 2008, 4:48am, 99of9 wrote:

This is a good option to look at.  I think it would continue:
38w Dc4e Dd4e De4e Df4e

 
I tried 38b rd5w rc5w rb5s hb3s and lost both h and r but caputed the D (on g4) and had goal pressure on the east side.  Silver had dcc for gold's HDR.  For a depleted board, that might be about even, although silver has a 4-3 advantage in rabbit pushers.
IP Logged
jdb
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #214

   


Gender: male
Posts: 682
Re: Move 35
« Reply #54 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 9:20am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Jun 24th, 2008, 4:36am, Soter wrote:

 
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e  
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w  
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s  
37w rc4s rc3x Dd4w Eb3e hb2n  
37b dg3s Rg1w dg2s rg6s

 
The idea of blocking golds access to the g and h files with the dog is great. With a slight modification, I think we get a winning attack.  
37b dg3s Rg1w dg2s rd5s
 
Now the dog on c5 can't stop the h7 rabbit from running up the board. With the wall set up by the dog and elephant, that should be enough for a goal.
IP Logged
RonWeasley
Forum Moderator
Forum Guru
*****




Harry's friend (Arimaa player #441)

   


Gender: male
Posts: 882
Re: Move 35
« Reply #55 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 9:32am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Jun 24th, 2008, 4:56am, Soter wrote:

 
Yet another fresh idea for 37b ( but this one might be too risky )
 
37b dg3s Rg1w dg2s rd5s
 
Now our rabbit serves as a kind of obstacle; gold dog needs an additional step when moving east and won't be able to reach g4. Haven't checked what happens later tho.
 
 

 
The immediate threat is 38b rg6s rg5s rg4s rg3s with goal next turn.
 
Gold must put the D on g4.  This frees the r on d4 to cover c3 if gold pulls up the h.  Otherwise, our e can stick to the D and silver can swarm rabbits on the east side.  Probably trade h for D, but that give silver a clean east side to make threats on.
 
From our original position, I'm OK trading hd for DC and even losing a rabbit to end up with dcc for HD.  Being one ahead in the piece count is helpful in a depleted endgame.
IP Logged
Soter
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #2381

   
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 138
Re: Move 35
« Reply #56 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 9:56am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

Yeah, I liked it this 37b instantly when I saw it. But we need to do some heavy analysis of possible deviations; e.g. what if it the elephant eats the rabbit and then dog moves east one step?
 
Now a different kettle of fish: assuming that the mob chooses 35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e, is something like 36w Da3n Da4n Da5n Da6e even remotely playable for chessandgo? Yes, I know this one looks rather wacky, but don't forget about Jean's penchant for surprises...
IP Logged
mistre
Forum Guru
*****





   


Gender: male
Posts: 553
Re: Move 35
« Reply #57 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 10:12am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

It appears that the mob is venturing off into over-analyzing the apparent favorite move into the future.  How sure can we be that Chessandgo plays our expected 36w?  Jean surprises us more often than not.  If not, this seems like a waste of time as we all know the tree can change drastically based on one move.
 
What we should be asking is if there is a better 35b than ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e?, and at this point no one is providing alternatives.
 
IP Logged

warren
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #2145

   


Gender: male
Posts: 144
Re: Move 35
« Reply #58 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 11:21am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Jun 24th, 2008, 10:12am, mistre wrote:
It appears that the mob is venturing off into over-analyzing the apparent favorite move into the future.  How sure can we be that Chessandgo plays our expected 36w?  Jean surprises us more often than not.  If not, this seems like a waste of time as we all know the tree can change drastically based on one move.
 
What we should be asking is if there is a better 35b than ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e?, and at this point no one is providing alternatives.
 

I agree. After
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s
37w rc4s rc3x Dd4w Eb3e hb2n
37b elephant to d3
we are in a roughly even position. There's no point in analyzing the rabbit-pushing horse-sacrifice 37b further until someone points out another 35b that looks like it might be better.
 
Analyzing lines can be helpful as a way of exploring the strategic landscape, but I think mistre has a point that we're overdoing it a bit and more attention to earlier moves is warranted.
 
Finding a better 35b is hard. To get things started, let's try to figure out what the second-best 35b is. Are there any other 35bs that do better than losing the dog in return for freeing our horse?
 
Update: I just updated my game tree on page 2. It's getting kind of complicated so don't shoot me if I put a move in the wrong place.
« Last Edit: Jun 24th, 2008, 11:44am by warren » IP Logged
Soter
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #2381

   
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 138
Re: Move 35
« Reply #59 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 11:37am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

Hmm... My original ed3e ee2s dc4n dc5n is already refuted IIRC, mainly because  Rg1w in the next move destroys the possibility of pushing gold H to f1. Anything else with e->e2 ( ed3e ee2s xxxx xxxx ) looks either slightly worse or utterly bad. For now I support 99's 35b, although I must express my worries that the repertoire of good moves at our disposal seems to shrink recently Undecided.
 
Warren, what about your 35b dc4s dc3n Rc2n xxxx?
« Last Edit: Jun 24th, 2008, 11:41am by Soter » IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6  7 Reply Reply Notify of replies Notify of replies Send Topic Send Topic Print Print

« Previous topic | Next topic »

Arimaa Forum » Powered by YaBB 1 Gold - SP 1.3.1!
YaBB © 2000-2003. All Rights Reserved.