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   Author  Topic: 2015 move 8  (Read 3633 times)
Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 move 8
« Reply #15 on: Oct 20th, 2015, 12:59pm »
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If we played 8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hh6s silver could reply with
8s: ee4w ed4w rh6s de6s
 
Then
 
9g: Ef5s Ef4n Mg4w Hg4n
9s: hh4s hh3w dd6e de5s
 
Gives silver too strong a control of f3.
 
9g:Ef5s Ef4n Mg4w De3n allows the camel to escape with
9s hh4w mf4w me4w md5n silver can now take the a6 horse hostage with the camel next turn if we don't retreat it.
 
Moving the elephant to f4 on 9g would allow something like 9s: mg4n Rg5w Ec4n Mb4e shutting down the attack and winning the rabbit.
 
It looks to me as if an rh5 step on 8s would make it difficult to make a threat in the east allowing the siler elephant to head west to stop our attack.
 
8g gh5 h3 a5 Mb4.  Would still allow silver to blockade f5 with
8s: rg6s cf7e cg7s rf7s but we would gain at least two steps so this may be OK.
 
 
 
What if we went for a slower attack with 8g Ra4n Mb4n Mb3n Ra3n ?
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SilverMitt
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Re: 2015 move 8
« Reply #16 on: Oct 20th, 2015, 4:19pm »
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on Oct 20th, 2015, 12:59pm, Hufflepup wrote:
...
 
8g gh5 h3 a5 Mb4.  Would still allow silver to blockade f5 with
8s: rg6s cf7e cg7s rf7s but we would gain at least two steps so this may be OK.
 
...

One of the points of the h3 step is to threaten 9g Hf3 E:Mg3, which that 8s (I'm assuming it is 8s g5 Cg6 f7) does not defend against.
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Hippo
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Re: 2015 move 8
« Reply #17 on: Oct 21st, 2015, 5:05pm »
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I am also a bit afraid of :se c4 x x,
but what is wrong with
8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s
8s ee4w ed4w de6s rh6s
9g de5s Ef5w de4s Ee5s
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SilverMitt
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Re: 2015 move 8
« Reply #18 on: Oct 21st, 2015, 6:45pm »
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on Oct 21st, 2015, 5:05pm, Hippo wrote:
I am also a bit afraid of :se c4 x x,
but what is wrong with
8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s
8s ee4w ed4w de6s rh6s
9g de5s Ef5w de4s Ee5s

9s Mf4:H Hg3 seems strong to me.
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browni3141
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Re: 2015 move 8
« Reply #19 on: Oct 21st, 2015, 11:38pm »
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Hufflepup's post seems pretty spot on, as far as I can tell. Without seeing a great continuation to his proposed reply to pulling the horse this move, it seems hasty. Rh2n/g1n and moreso Rg5e are both positionally important to play. The rabbit on h5 is relatively safe while hindering silver's mobility, and on g5 now it is potentially blocking our own mobility. h3n prevents an immediate horse intrusion and threatens to take the camel hostage.
 
I think the main choice is between a tactical, forcing move or a slower positional move containing h2n/g1n and g5e.
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Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 move 8
« Reply #20 on: Oct 22nd, 2015, 3:25am »
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Even 8g: gh5 h3 a5 Mb4 might be too quick.
 
8s: ee4w ed4w ece4 Mb4n
9g: Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Dd2n
9s: eb4e ec4n Mc5e re1s
10g: Dd2n Md5n Dd6n Dd4n  
10s: de6s ec5n ec6e Md6e
 
Looks very bad for us.
 
I don't think we can safely make a fast attack with the current position, and that we will need to play a slower developing move.
 
8g: Rh2n Rg5e Ra4n Dd2n ?
« Last Edit: Oct 22nd, 2015, 3:26am by Hufflepup » IP Logged
chessandgo
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Re: 2015 move 8
« Reply #21 on: Oct 22nd, 2015, 4:11am »
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What's wrong with  
8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s
8s ee4w ed4w rh6s de6s
9g Ef5s Ef4n mg4w Rh2n
9s dd6e de5s mf4e rb7s
10g Ef5s Hg3w mg4s Ef4e
(edit:  
9s hh4w mf4w me4w md4n
might be a better try. The position looks very messy)
 
I agree that Rh5 and Rh3 would be nice steps. If 8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s is too forcing for silver to take advantage of us not playing these steps right away, it's probably the better move, if there is a "tactical" refutation, then 8g Rg5e Rh2n x x should be fine.
« Last Edit: Oct 22nd, 2015, 4:23am by chessandgo » IP Logged

chessandgo
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Re: 2015 move 8
« Reply #22 on: Oct 22nd, 2015, 4:15am »
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on Oct 22nd, 2015, 3:25am, Hufflepup wrote:
Even 8g: gh5 h3 a5 Mb4 might be too quick.
 
8s: ee4w ed4w ece4 Mb4n
9g: Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Dd2n

 
How about 9g Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Ef5e?
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Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 move 8
« Reply #23 on: Oct 22nd, 2015, 7:37am »
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Quote:
What's wrong with  
8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s
8s ee4w ed4w rh6s de6s
9g Ef5s Ef4n mg4w Rh2n
9s dd6e de5s mf4e rb7s
10g Ef5s Hg3w mg4s Ef4e
(edit:  
9s hh4w mf4w me4w md4n
might be a better try. The position looks very messy)

 
With the second 9s silver is threatening to take the a6 hostage with the camel, and then to capture it next turn. If we moved our elephant west to protect it we lose the advanced rabbit without gaining a good attack in the west. Something like 10g: Ef5s Ef4n hg4w De2n would slow silver down, but 10s: de5s hf4e md5w hb5w still leaves us in a bad position.
 
Quote:
How about 9g Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Ef5e?

 
That looks like a good reply to me.
 
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SilverMitt
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Re: 2015 move 8
« Reply #24 on: Oct 22nd, 2015, 12:41pm »
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Given the past voting process, it might be good to suggest and analyze additional moves starting with 8g gh5 h3 x x, such as 8g gh5 h3 gh2.  The Mb4 step does seem like it should be accompanied with a5, because otherwise we don't have the extra step to respond to 9s E:Mb5.
 
Also, after 8g Mb4:H 8s Ec4 h5 De5, our camel is still less vulnerable than the silver camel (our weakness is the g5 rabbit).  Retreating the camel on 9g would be at best a wash in terms of time used if the silver elephant returns east unless we can pull off 9g Mb3:H Hb6; keeping it on b4 is quite tactical, though it can't be flipped to c5 yet.
« Last Edit: Oct 22nd, 2015, 12:52pm by SilverMitt » IP Logged
Hippo
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Re: 2015 move 8
« Reply #25 on: Oct 22nd, 2015, 2:17pm »
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on Oct 22nd, 2015, 4:15am, chessandgo wrote:

 
How about 9g Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Ef5e?

 
Are we OK after silver pushing Mc6? It seems to me trade is better for silver and it's hard to prevent it.
 
May be I am wrong ... if the trade ends with both MH for mh traded, our advanced rabbits would become strong.  
 
But I am not sure we could trade both MH for mh ...
 
Is :Rh5, g2, h3 Eg5 an option? ... if m runs west, E could follow and pull :rg5 meanwhile
 
But 8s ee3 mf4 hh3 Rh2 looks fine for silver with Rg2 h2 formation I dislike ...
May be we would be fine after
9g Ef5 rg5 Mb4 Ra3
9s Hf3 hg3
10g Mb5 Ra5 Ef4 mg4
 
The position is messy ... I have  
8g Rh2n Rg1n Rg5e Ef5e
8s mg4w ee4s Rh3s hh4s
9g Eg5w rg6s Mb3n Ra2n
9s rf8e rg8s rg7s rg5s
10g Mb4n Mb5s hb6s Ha6e
10s mf4w me4w md4w mc4n
11g Ef5w Ee5w Mb4s hb5s
11s ee3w ed3n ed4w mc5w
12g Ed5w mb5w Ec5w Hb6w
 
as another line ...
but  
10s Hf3 hg3 looks much stronger with rg4
 
OK I don't like Eg5 step
What about 8g Rh5, h3, h2?
 
Seems after 8s hh5 mh4 Rg5 Ed4 silver is fine, mh are safe and e could defend west.
« Last Edit: Oct 22nd, 2015, 3:05pm by Hippo » IP Logged

deep_blue
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Re: 2015 move 8
« Reply #26 on: Oct 22nd, 2015, 3:02pm »
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Vote will start soon so here is the list of so far discussed moves (and maybe when I'll eventually start the poll I'll try to post a full analysis tree):
8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5w hb6s (Ma5:h)
8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s (Mb4:h)
8g Rg5e Rh2n Ra4n Mb3n (gh5 h3 a5 Mb4)
8g Rg5e Rh2n Rg1n Rg2e (gh5 h3 gh2)
8g Rh2n Rg1n Rg5e Ef5e  
8g Rg5e Ef5e Eg5w rg6s (H5 g5)
« Last Edit: Oct 22nd, 2015, 11:44pm by deep_blue » IP Logged
Hippo
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Re: 2015 move 8
« Reply #27 on: Oct 22nd, 2015, 3:14pm »
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What about 8g Rh5 rg5?
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Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 move 8
« Reply #28 on: Oct 22nd, 2015, 6:28pm »
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Quote:
Are we OK after silver pushing Mc6? It seems to me trade is better for silver and it's hard to prevent it.
 
May be I am wrong ... if the trade ends with both MH for mh traded, our advanced rabbits would become strong.  

 
Good point.
 
I think the advanced rabbits are more of a libaility then an asset as one of them will probably be captured as well.
 
10s: eb4e Mc5n ec4n hb5s  
11g: mg4w Eg5s mg4sx Eg4w (We have to take he camel now otherwise it could easily escape e.g. 11s de6s mg4w mf4n mf5n)
11s: ec5w Hb6w eb5n hb5n
12g: Ef4e Eg4n hh4w Dd2n
12s: eb6e Ha6e ec6s Hb6ex
13g: hg4w Eg5s hf4sx Eg4w
13s: Ra5n hb6w Ra6e ha5n
 
There is now no way to stop the rabbit being lost next turn.
 
Even if we could avoid losing the rabbit I would be opposed to an avoidable equal trade if it didn't lead to some clear advantage.
 
Can we include a slower developmental move in the poll, like 8g Rg5e Rh2n Ra4n Dd3n ?
 
Our camel won't be in any immediate answer and the advanced dog will be in a better position to unfreeze the camel once it does advance on f6.
 
 
 
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Hippo
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Re: 2015 move 8
« Reply #29 on: Oct 23rd, 2015, 2:42am »
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In the trading variant I am afraid silver neednot continue trading at 12s and it can rather save its horse.
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