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   Author  Topic: 2015 Move 9g  (Read 3760 times)
Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #15 on: Nov 7th, 2015, 3:35am »
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I disagree that the point of our horse pull is defeated. Our Horse gets access to b6 square. [\quote]
 
If we want the horse on b6 why don't we just move it there as the fourth step? This way silver also has to respond to the camel threatening the horse in c3.
 
 
[quote]If silver goes 10s hb5n ec5s Dd4n ec4e, we don't achieve anything over our current position. On the contrary, we have a threatened dog and a weakened trap. This variation doesn't seem OK to me.

 
We could reply to this with 11g: Hg4w Hf4w mg5s Ef5e
11s: hh3w Rg3w mg4w  de5s
12g: Rf3w Eg5w Re3w De2n
12s silver elephant captures dog.
13g: mf4e Ef5s mg4e Ef4e
Silver now can't stop us capturing at least a horse on 14g.
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ikalyoncu
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #16 on: Nov 7th, 2015, 5:03am »
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on Nov 7th, 2015, 3:35am, Hufflepup wrote:

 
We could reply to this with 11g: Hg4w Hf4w mg5s Ef5e
11s: hh3w Rg3w mg4w  de5s
12g: Rf3w Eg5w Re3w De2n
12s silver elephant captures dog.
13g: mf4e Ef5s mg4e Ef4e
Silver now can't stop us capturing at least a horse on 14g.

 
These lines need to be checked carefully. To me, it's still not clear after 13s ec5s ec4e Mb4e xxx.
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half_integer
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #17 on: Nov 7th, 2015, 7:30am »
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It seems to me that allowing the silver horse to get f2 is bad for us in the long run.  Our camel is easily blocked from crossing leaving us to deal with a horse using the elephant; if we leave it alone it will be thorn in our side for a long time.  Even Hufflepup's line exposing an f2 horse to capture while threatening another capture in c3 just allows the horse to move to g2, where the best we could do is a horse hostaged by a buried elephant, which is a worse than useless outcome.
 
(10g Mb4s hb5s Cf3w Rg1n might be an exception - after 10s Rg2e hf2e Ee4ww  11g horse b4 flip to b2, but I don't like the resulting hostage position, especially after 11s ec4ws Mb3e X)
 
So, what are the ways to prevent the h3 horse from getting to f2 this turn?
- occupy g2
- occupy h2
- occupy f3 so the f2 piece cannot be pushed
- make a threat elsewhere that must be answered - noting that with the current setup around f3, h->f2 can capture a cat if not answered
 
If we accept that we don't want the horse at f2, then for some of these possibilities we'll need to take additional steps to respond on the next move as well if silver makes progress such as h->g3 .
 
It seems like we have some choices to make: keep the trap open to make threats, or congest the trap and eventually the whole northeast.
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Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #18 on: Nov 8th, 2015, 9:00am »
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If we accept that we don't want the horse at f2, then for some of these possibilities we'll need to take additional steps to respond on the next move as well if silver makes progress such as h->g3 .

 
A horse at f2 will be prolematic, however if we try and stop it with any kind of blockade then it will be very difficult to make any kind of threats there, allowing the silver elephant to shut down our attack in the west. In time the silver M + H + other small pieces would probably be able to force our elephant to commit to f3 leaving the silver elephant free to attack us in the east.
 
To stop this I think we need to get some kind of counter play in the east before silvers grip arounf f3 becomes too strong.
 
The long term situation afer 9g: Mb4n Mb5s hb6s Ha6e, 9s: ee4w ed4w ec4n Mb4e looks very complicated and I am not convinced Sharp can't get a significant advantage out of it.  
 
Perhaps our best move would be to occupy f2 with the horse 9g: Hg4w Hf4s cf2e Hf3s. This secures f2 for the forseeable future and our elephant should have an easier time making threats in the east from this position.
 
« Last Edit: Nov 9th, 2015, 11:56am by Hufflepup » IP Logged
deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #19 on: Nov 9th, 2015, 11:53am »
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So far moves in the poll:
1. 9g Mb4n Mb5s hb6s Ha6e  
2. 9g Rg3w Rf3n Hg4s Rf4e
3. 9g Mb4n Mb5s hb6s De2n
4. 9g Hh4 E:Mg4 g2  
5. 9g Hh4 E:Mg4 Mb5
6. 9g Hf3 E:Mg4
7. 9g: Hg4w Hf4s Cf2e(?) Hf3s
« Last Edit: Nov 10th, 2015, 5:14am by deep_blue » IP Logged
Hippo
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #20 on: Nov 10th, 2015, 8:32am »
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Hmm, I have hoped some c&g or browni would shere their ideas, especially on this move.
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half_integer
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #21 on: Nov 10th, 2015, 2:42pm »
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on Nov 9th, 2015, 11:53am, deep_blue wrote:
So far moves in the poll:
2. 9g Rg3w Rf3n Hg4s Rf4e
7. 9g: Hg4w Hf4s Cf2e(?) Hf3s

 
For moves two and seven, how could we respond to hh3nw Rg4w or Rg3nw Hh3wn respectively?  Silver's putting the rabbit on f4 leaves no retreat and no ability to push the silver horse or camel.  These look bad for us; the only response that comes quickly to mind would be to swarm the east.  I don't see an easy way to prevent the silver e putting the rabbit on e5 on the next move either.  Doing so with e->d5 would both threaten a rabbit frame or loss and allow the elephant to move towards c6.
« Last Edit: Nov 10th, 2015, 2:47pm by half_integer » IP Logged
half_integer
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #22 on: Nov 10th, 2015, 2:56pm »
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on Nov 9th, 2015, 11:53am, deep_blue wrote:
So far moves in the poll:
4. 9g Hh4 E:Mg4 g2  
5. 9g Hh4 E:Mg4 Mb5

 
Deep,
 
I thought that following post #10 the idea of moving the horse east lost favor and sentiment went towards western moves.  There is a h->f3 move in the poll, but no h->f4 move.
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deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #23 on: Nov 10th, 2015, 5:13pm »
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Add to poll: Hg4w mg5s Ef5e Rg1n (Hf4 E:mg4 g2)
Hg4w mg5s Ef5e Mb4n (Hf4 E:mg4 Mb5)
alternative 4th steps?
« Last Edit: Nov 10th, 2015, 5:20pm by deep_blue » IP Logged
deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #24 on: Nov 10th, 2015, 5:33pm »
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Restarted the poll with those two moves added.
What do you think about the Mb4n 4th step? I added it on my own (plus algorias who also suggested it). What are the disadvantages vs. Rg1n and do they outweight the advantage of a possibly faster counter attack?
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Algorias
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #25 on: Nov 10th, 2015, 5:40pm »
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I briefly mentioned the Mb4n step in my post #8 (the idea was to add it as a 4th step to whathever maneuvering we do around F3). The general idea is that it should be a relatively safe attack. The lone silver elephant can't really hurt the camel backed up by a horse in any reasonable timeframe (mutual protection), and we get the threat of a horse flip or other very offensive move whenever the situation shifts in the east.
 
That said, I haven't really worked through the tactics of that line in any detail. It's just a hunch. There might be glaring strategic weaknesses, but since noone commented, I assume there were no objections.
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deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #26 on: Nov 10th, 2015, 5:40pm »
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My own opinion on this: Like Hufflepup already mentioned we need to get some play otherwise we get squeezed. In the last moves I fear we lost some momentum so I would seriously consider Mb4n to get some play (unless there's a tactical refutation of course). One critical response might be hf2 but I think then our western attack might be strong while we can somehow hold on in the east. Simply mg4e Eg5s Cf3w Hf4s might be fine with the constant western threat. But then, I am not sure about the position, other input would be nice.
 
Alternatively something like 9s Hf4n ee4e Rg3s mg4s looks natural but I think is fine for us with De2n Hf5w plus 2 western steps like Mb5s hb6s or Mb5e hb6s or similar.
« Last Edit: Nov 10th, 2015, 5:47pm by deep_blue » IP Logged
half_integer
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #27 on: Nov 10th, 2015, 8:44pm »
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I am a bit worried about the western situation if the silver elephant crosses while we can't make an immediate threat in f3.  For instance:
9g Hg4w mg5s Ef5e Rg1n
9s ee4www Mb4n
we're left unable to create a threat in the east with less than two steps; defending c6 and c3 takes all four:
10g Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Rb1n (or Dd2n)
10s Ra5n hb5w ra8e eb4n
and I'm worried.  The camel can be forced away from c6 and the horse is in danger.  Can the horse survive long by going through the trap to c7 or d6?  Is there a better 10g?
 
And as I said in a post above, I'm also worried by any move that allows the g3 rabbit to be pushed to f4 with flanking silver pieces.
 
In short, I think we need to be cautious about allowing f3 to get clogged lest we find ourselves with a slower attack than what silver can pull off by switching to the west.
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Algorias
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #28 on: Nov 11th, 2015, 2:20am »
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on Nov 10th, 2015, 8:44pm, half_integer wrote:
 Is there a better 10g?

 
 
I think that's the right 10g, and after
 
11g: Rg3w Rf3w mg4s Eg5s
 
We are in a pretty good position. This tactic doesn't work out with the Mb4n step, however, so  
 
9g: Hg4w mg5s ef5e Mb4n
 
is a terrible idea, while
 
9g: Hg4e mg5s ef5e Mb4n
 
is looking more decent.
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Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #29 on: Nov 11th, 2015, 1:29pm »
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For 9g: Mb4n Mb5s hb6s  ha6e
9s: ee4w ed4w ec4n Mb4e
10g: Dd2n Dd3n Mc4w Hb6w
 
Quote:
If silver goes 10s hb5n ec5s Dd4n ec4e, we don't achieve anything over our current position. On the contrary, we have a threatened dog and a weakened trap. This variation doesn't seem OK to me.

 
An alternative 10g which wouldn't put the dog in such a vulnerable position would be cc2n Rc2nMc4w Hb6w. I can't see silver making any strong threats to the camel or dog after this move. If he went after the horse we can more than make up for it with threats around f3.
 
Quote:
Add to poll: Hg4w mg5s Ef5e Rg1n (Hf4 E:mg4 g2)

 
9s: Rg3w hh3w Hf4n mg4w
10g: Rf3w Hf5w Eg5w He5w
 
Leaves us in a very weak position around f3, wothout any compensation in the west. Replacing the Rg1n step with Mb4n makes the situation worse as it would allow the silver camel to push into f2 on 10s.
« Last Edit: Nov 11th, 2015, 1:30pm by Hufflepup » IP Logged
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