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   Author  Topic: 2015 Move 10g  (Read 2531 times)
deep_blue
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2015 Move 10g
« on: Nov 23rd, 2015, 1:57am »
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Sharp has moved!
 
Getting some sort of tree would be great so please try to create one.
You can just copy the old tree and add your moves and possible evaluations (like = , += , +/- or +-).
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Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 Move 10g
« Reply #1 on: Nov 23rd, 2015, 6:25am »
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My first thought is 10g: Eg5w Ef5s mf4e Dd2n
 
Moving the elephant to f4 looks mandatory. Pushing the camel east makes it more difficult for it to switch wings. The Dd2n step stops the silver elephant from flipping the horse to d3, so it will remain in play around the f3 trap.
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Algorias
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Re: 2015 Move 10g
« Reply #2 on: Nov 23rd, 2015, 8:16am »
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Hufflepup, what do we do if silver responds by spending 4 moves to switch wings with the camel? Our elephant is stuck defending f3 while silver threatens our d3 dog. To keep our Elephant free, we'd have to put the horse on f4, which I'm not sure works out.
 
10g: Eg5w Ef5s mf4e Dd2n
    10s: mg4n mg5w rg6s mf5w
   11g: Ef4w Hf3n x x
 
 
deep_blue, I like the idea of building a tree, but could you explain how the evaluations are to be interpreted? does "+" mean "good for us" or "good for the player who just made the move"? How do I interpret "+-"? We should have a clearly defined system in place to make communication more effective.
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SilverMitt
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Re: 2015 Move 10g
« Reply #3 on: Nov 23rd, 2015, 12:41pm »
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I am very much against putting the elephant on f4.  It looks like we have to allow the silver camel to go free, though.  Right now the following 2 moves seem interesting to me:
 
10g Eg4 Mb5 ce1 --
We could protect the horse in 2 steps with the fe1 step instead, as well.  I think silver's most obvious reply is to flip out the horse, perhaps to e4 to try to threaten it in the future.  Then, we could take 2 steps to defend f3 and 2 more to pull the b6 horse.
 
10g :Hg4 Hg3 --
We win the repetition fight, and it doesn't seem like silver can make good progress around f3 without using the camel.  The tactics following 10s M:Hh3 x are unclear to me (can we give up a cat for a camel hostage here?), and perhaps the silver camel will come west.
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Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 Move 10g
« Reply #4 on: Nov 23rd, 2015, 2:37pm »
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Quote:
Hufflepup, what do we do if silver responds by spending 4 moves to switch wings with the camel? Our elephant is stuck defending f3 while silver threatens our d3 dog. To keep our Elephant free, we'd have to put the horse on f4, which I'm not sure works out.

 
We could play 11g: Ef4e Eg4w hg4n Hf3e unless the camel headed back east on 11s our elephant is now free to leave this trap on 12g.
 
Quote:
I am very much against putting the elephant on f4

 
What is the problem with having it on f4? It looks like a good position to me.
 
Quote:
10g Eg4 Mb5 ce1 --

 
I think this dangrously decentralises the elephant. With something like 10s cf7s cf6s de6s de5s or 10s: rg6s cf7e cg7s rf8s would seriously reduce our elephants mobility.
 
Quote:
10g :Hg4 Hg3 --

 
Again our elephants mobility would be seriously reduced with cf7s cf6s rf8s de6s
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SilverMitt
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Re: 2015 Move 10g
« Reply #5 on: Nov 23rd, 2015, 3:56pm »
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Elephant mobility is not the primary concern here, in my opinion, and the elephant plays a significant role on g4 or g5 as long as the silver camel is around f3.  The proposed move ending with the elephant on f4 (E:Mg4 Dd3 in my notation) does seem strategically reasonable.
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deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 10g
« Reply #6 on: Nov 23rd, 2015, 3:59pm »
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Sorry, I thought evaluation was unique from the chess one:
= means equal,
+= bit better for gold
+/- better for gold
+- much better for gold
 
=+ bit better for silver etc.
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half_integer
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Re: 2015 Move 10g
« Reply #7 on: Nov 23rd, 2015, 4:57pm »
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on Nov 23rd, 2015, 3:59pm, deep_blue wrote:
Sorry, I thought evaluation was unique from the chess one:
= means equal,
+= bit better for gold
+/- better for gold
+- much better for gold
 
=+ bit better for silver etc.

I'm glad you posted this.  I never would have guessed this from the notation.  Smiley  I guess I could research how these meanings came about.
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Algorias
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Re: 2015 Move 10g
« Reply #8 on: Nov 24th, 2015, 5:59am »
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I've aggregated proposals so far into a tree. Using dots to indent, as it won't indent properly using only whitespace. I've added comments where relevant. Will replace comments with evaluations once the discussion settles I guess.
 
Hufflepup: I added an 11s Dd3n ee3w hg4e x as a possible response to your proposed 11g, I think in this case we have a dog in danger and a suddenly unstable c3 trap. Not being able to make an immediate capture in f3 really hurts our position.
 
 
10g Eg4 Mb5 ce1 --
..10s ee3w Hf3w He3n ed3e (claimed unproblematic by silvermitt, I agree)
....11g mb5s hg6s mf4n Eg4w
....11g mb5s hg6s hg3e Eg4s
..10s cf7s cf6s de6s de5s (reduced E mobility?)
..10s rg6s cf7e cg7s rf8s (reduced E mobility?)
 
 
10g :hg4 Hg3 --
..10s M:Hh3
..10s cf7s cf6s rf8s de6s (reduced E mobility?)
 
 
10g Eg5w Ef5s mf4e Dd2n
..10s mg4n mg5w rg6s mf5w
....11g Ef4w Hf3n x x
....11g Ef4e Eg4w hg4n Hf3e
......11s Dd3n ee3w hg4e x (dog and c3 in danger?)
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Algorias
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Re: 2015 Move 10g
« Reply #9 on: Nov 24th, 2015, 7:18am »
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To add a bit to Hufflepup's objection regarding Elephant mobility, I agree that his 10s in the 2nd branch is problematic, since this threatens to free the silver elephant by replacing it with the e5 dog on e3, so we would need to respond with something like  
 
10g :hg4 Hg3 --
..10s M:Hh3
..10s cf7s cf6s rf8s de6s (reduced E mobility?)  
....11g hg4e Eg5s mf4s Eg4w
......11s Hg3e mf3e hh4w Rh5s
 
which I find hard to evaluate.
 
 
I like the move 10g Eg4 Mb5 ce1 -- considerably less, since its so passive, allowing the elephant to threaten the west:
 
10g Eg4 Mb5 ce1 --  
..10s cf7s cf6s de6s de5s (reduced E mobility?)
....11g hg3e Eg4s Eg3n Hf3e
......11s ee3w de4s x x
 
Sooner or later we will have do a pull and replace to free our horse from the frame on f3, and I'd rather do it sooner than later.
 
 
Regarding hufflepup's first suggestion, as shown in my previous post, my problem with it is the dd2n step. Is it really that bad if our horse gets flipped to d3? We could establish a very unstable double hostage (not sure how to call this configuration otherwise), and I have no idea how silver would react in that situation, but on a hunch it seems favorable.
 
 
10g Eg5w Ef5s mf4e Mb4n
..10s ee3n Hf3w He3w ee4s (horse flip)
....11g Ef4s hg3e Ef3e Rh5w
......11s Huh
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deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 10g
« Reply #10 on: Nov 24th, 2015, 10:16am »
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Thanks Algorias. I think this format looks nicer though:
on Nov 24th, 2015, 7:18am, Algorias wrote:
To add a bit to Hufflepup's objection regarding Elephant mobility, I agree that his 10s in the 2nd branch is problematic, since this threatens to free the silver elephant by replacing it with the e5 dog on e3, so we would need to respond with something like  
 
1.  10g :hg4 Hg3 --
1.1  -  10s M:Hh3
1.2  -  10s cf7s cf6s rf8s de6s (reduced E mobility?)  
1.2.1  -  -  11g hg4e Eg5s mf4s Eg4w
1.2.1.1  -  -  -  11s Hg3e mf3e hh4w Rh5s
 
which I find hard to evaluate.
 
 
I like the move 10g Eg4 Mb5 ce1 -- considerably less, since its so passive, allowing the elephant to threaten the west:
 
2.  10g Eg4 Mb5 ce1 --  
2.1  -  10s cf7s cf6s de6s de5s (reduced E mobility?)
2.1.1  -  -  11g hg3e Eg4s Eg3n Hf3e
2.1.1.1  -  -  -  11s ee3w de4s x x
 
Sooner or later we will have do a pull and replace to free our horse from the frame on f3, and I'd rather do it sooner than later.
 
 
Regarding hufflepup's first suggestion, as shown in my previous post, my problem with it is the dd2n step. Is it really that bad if our horse gets flipped to d3? We could establish a very unstable double hostage (not sure how to call this configuration otherwise), and I have no idea how silver would react in that situation, but on a hunch it seems favorable.
 
 
3.  10g Eg5w Ef5s mf4e Mb4n
3.1  -  10s ee3n Hf3w He3w ee4s (horse flip)
3.1.1  -  -  11g Ef4s hg3e Ef3e Rh5w
3.1.1.1  -  -  -  11s Huh

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aaaa
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Re: 2015 Move 10g
« Reply #11 on: Nov 24th, 2015, 1:03pm »
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on Nov 24th, 2015, 7:18am, Algorias wrote:
Regarding hufflepup's first suggestion, as shown in my previous post, my problem with it is the dd2n step. Is it really that bad if our horse gets flipped to d3? We could establish a very unstable double hostage (not sure how to call this configuration otherwise), and I have no idea how silver would react in that situation, but on a hunch it seems favorable.
 
 
10g Eg5w Ef5s mf4e Mb4n
..10s ee3n Hf3w He3w ee4s (horse flip)
....11g Ef4s hg3e Ef3e Rh5w
......11s Huh

 
That should be 10g Eg5w mf4e Ef5s Mb4n and as a possible refutation of the subsequent horse flip, consider the simpler 11g Mb5s hb6s Mb4s hb5s.
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Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 Move 10g
« Reply #12 on: Nov 24th, 2015, 2:23pm »
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That should be 10g Eg5w mf4e Ef5s Mb4n and as a possible refutation of the subsequent horse flip, consider the simpler 11g Mb5s hb6s Mb4s hb5s.

 
The problem with the horse flip is that unless we can generate a stronge enough threat to force silvers elephant away wemay end up fighting an EMH attack with only one heavy piece. I'm not convinced the threat to the horse is a stong enough counter. e.g for the above line:
 
11s: mg4n mg5s Rh5w rh6s threatening goal in 1
12g: Rg2e Rh2n Rg1n Ha6e
12s: rh5s rg6e cf7e cg7s
13g: Mb3e hb4s hb3e Mc3n We capture a horse
13s: hg3w Rh3w rh4s rh3s again threatening goal in 1
 
There are plenty of other possibilities of course, but this sort of position doesn't look very good for us.
« Last Edit: Nov 24th, 2015, 2:39pm by Hufflepup » IP Logged
Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 Move 10g
« Reply #13 on: Nov 24th, 2015, 2:46pm »
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Quote:
Hufflepup: I added an 11s Dd3n ee3w hg4e x as a possible response to your proposed 11g, I think in this case we have a dog in danger and a suddenly unstable c3 trap. Not being able to make an immediate capture in f3 really hurts our position.

 
How about 12g: Ef4w Dd4w Dc4s Dc3w looks OK as a defence?
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SilverMitt
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Re: 2015 Move 10g
« Reply #14 on: Nov 24th, 2015, 4:33pm »
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Let me add that 10g Eg4 Mb5 ce1 10s De4 Cf5 allows 11g E::Mh4.  To limit the elephant mobility, I'd expect 10s to include a g5 step in that line.  And, of course, the elephant on g4 is rather awkwardly placed, but it's also freezing 2 "heavy" pieces for the moment, while we're trying to start a counterattack around c6.  On the other hand, it should also be in sharp's tactical "wheelhouse", so perhaps such a move is ill-advised practically.  It's irritating that we have to spend at least one step to blockade e2 (I'd have loved to be able to play 10g Eg4 Mc5:H) and perhaps that's enough to nix any move including Eg4.
 
My main concern with putting the elephant on f4 really is that silver will be able to get a strong rabbit to h3 or h2 and rotate the camel west.  Pushing the camel to g4 does slow this for a turn, and I would expect silver to play a move like 10s Me5 g5 or 10s Mf5 g4 in response.  I also do like Mb5 as the 4th step much more than Dd3 now, as flipping the horse out is not that useful for silver if the elephant has to subsequently come back to defend c6.
 
I think I quite dislike 10g :Hg4 Hg3 now, as it gets our horse sidelined and makes no progress in the west.  After 10s M:Hh3 De5, I think the silver attack is faster and stronger than what we can do in the west, nor can we take a good camel hostage.
« Last Edit: Nov 24th, 2015, 5:34pm by SilverMitt » IP Logged
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