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half_integer
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #30 on: Nov 11th, 2015, 2:51pm »
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on Nov 11th, 2015, 1:29pm, Hufflepup wrote:
9g: Mb4n Mb5s hb6s  ha6e
9s: Rg3w hh3w Hf4n mg4w
10g: Rf3w Hf5w Eg5w He5w

 
I think there are better 10g's than this.  Rf3w Eg5sw mf4s for instance.
 
This is not my favored 9g, but not because of this response.  I'm unhappy with ee4www Mb4n as we don't have free steps to make an immediate threat while saving the camel.  Perhaps there is a way to make a trade come out in our favor but we'd be steps behind and I think silver can opt out of the trade while maintaining threats.
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half_integer
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #31 on: Nov 11th, 2015, 6:26pm »
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In the end, I decided that the only move I'm truly happy with is putting the horse on the f3 trap.  Most of the other moves allow silver to prevent us from making threats until 11g, and it seems like silver could put us on the defensive in the west in that time.  Perhaps some of you can see the tactics in the west better than I can, but I'm not at all confident about our chances there with M+H vs. E+H+small army.
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SilverMitt
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #32 on: Nov 12th, 2015, 3:38pm »
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I'm not really a fan of pondering for this game, but an interesting move in reply to 9g Hf3 E:Mg4 might be 9s Ef4 Mh4:R Hg3.
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deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #33 on: Nov 12th, 2015, 5:22pm »
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What if we played 10g Hf3w Mb4n Mb5s hb6s (He3 hb5) then? I don't see any immediate E blockade or any other severe consequences and then I do like our position.
« Last Edit: Nov 12th, 2015, 5:23pm by deep_blue » IP Logged
browni3141
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #34 on: Nov 13th, 2015, 12:52am »
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I think playing 9g Hg4e mg5s Ef5e Mb4n would be a big mistake.
 
I do not see a way to meet these moves and some variations:
9s ee4w de6s de5s de4s
9s hh3s hh2w Cf2n hg2w
 
Voluntarily pacifying our horse around a trap we're being attacked should raise alarm bells and it needs a good reason.
 
I should have mentioned this earlier, but this is often a good way to escape the camel threat (9g, 9s just setup for the pattern, not a real line):
 
9g Hg4w Hf4s mg5s Ef5e
9s ee4w ed4w Mb4n ec4w
10g Mb5e hb6s Mc5s hb5e
 
We should think about it in variations.
« Last Edit: Nov 13th, 2015, 12:59am by browni3141 » IP Logged

half_integer
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #35 on: Nov 14th, 2015, 8:23am »
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I agree with browni (as if my opinion could outweigh his anyways  Smiley ).  I had seen that lines with a silver dog coming to f3 can be a problem, as only the elephant can threaten it if the horse is too far away or frozen, and in most cases the elephant will also be too far away or overloaded.
 
As for the two moves in the tiebreaker poll which pull the b6 silver horse, I'd like to examine Algorias' statement that the horse and camel can survive against the "lone elephant" (which actually has its own army for support there).  I don't think they can but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.  I think the only outcome is the camel retreating near d3 and the horse immobilized, probably on a6.
 
The Mc5 hb5 Hb6 pattern doesn't look good to me because the camel can be removed from c5 by the silver elephant.  The horse then has to retreat to a6 or perhaps b7 while we still rescue the camel.  At either position, it appears easily immobilized by silver using rabbit and small piece phalanxes along with the silver horse.  The worst situation would be if silver can push our rabbit to a6 and leave his own horse on b5, but I think we can avoid those lines.
 
So my vote will be for H->f3 first, H->h4 last, and the others in the middle.
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deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #36 on: Nov 14th, 2015, 2:21pm »
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I agree with pretty much everything half_integer said. This ranking looks plausible to me too.
Browni's line looks interesting, my question, how do you want to play after  
9g Hg4w Hf4s mg5s Ef5e
9s ee4w ed4w Mb4n ec4w
10g Mb5e hb6s Mc5s hb5e  
10s hb6
But I still (not that my 10s refutes it...) think its the correct 9g.
« Last Edit: Nov 14th, 2015, 2:22pm by deep_blue » IP Logged
half_integer
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #37 on: Nov 14th, 2015, 6:32pm »
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on Nov 14th, 2015, 2:21pm, deep_blue wrote:
9g Hg4w Hf4s mg5s Ef5e
9s ee4w ed4w Mb4n ec4w
10g Mb5e hb6s Mc5s hb5e  
10s hb6
But I still (not that my 10s refutes it...) think its the correct 9g.

Is that the correct 10g?  I think Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Hf3w is better - then if silver pushes M->d5 he is trading away camel for horse, and we rescue the camel next move.
 
I think he has to play a variant of hh3n mg4wwn or Rg3w hh3w mg4w X.  Our cat is hanging at this point but he'd be foolish to take it as we could phalanx at d2 and still get the camel, then bring our elephant west while he goes the long way around c3.
 
The tactics are unclear to me after the suggested 10s.  It seems likely silver will escape with the camel and only suffer an immobilized horse.  But the position seems fairly symmetric, M+H at away trap vs. E+H in each case, and there's the possibility we could move the horse to c7 given a move with no pressing threats.
 
I'll keep looking at possibilities.  Maybe we should be disciplined and write out a move tree.
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #38 on: Nov 14th, 2015, 6:52pm »
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I just realized that silver's best response to our H->f3 move may be to pull it back to f4, exactly what we were trying to avoid with the H->f4 moves:
 
9g Hg4ws mg5s Ef5e
9s ee4eww Hf3n
what's the best response?  One creative one is
10g Rg1n Rg3w mg4s Eg5s
which leaves the camel unfrozen but doesn't let it escape.
 
I still think it is worthwhile to play, as our single horse step takes three steps for silver to undo.
 
I wonder if this line could have rescued the H->f4 lines which became unfavored in the poll.  I'll have to go back and look at the other silver responses.
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deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #39 on: Nov 15th, 2015, 4:58am »
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How would the Hf4 line be rescued? Keep in mind we lost one step by playing Hf4s but silver lost 3 by playing ee4ew Hf3n.
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half_integer
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #40 on: Nov 15th, 2015, 2:18pm »
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I agree that the Hf4s step is still worthwhile as it costs silver three steps to follow that line, and also serves the original purpose of preventing the silver horse from pushing into f2.  But just for argument's sake I looked at the H->f4 lines again (and assumed R->g2 to still protect f2).  They don't look bad to me, as Rg3ww mg4s Eg5s accelerates our attack quite a bit.  If 9s were the ewww Mn move, silver only gets a trade if he takes the camel, and we're significantly ahead on steps (about 4) if we play out camel and horse trade.  If the silver camel pushes down to the southeast corner, it's still trapped there and we can make a camel escape with the extra move that gives us while still having longer range threats on the silver camel and horse.  The tactics don't look bad on fighting to rescue our camel if it is pushed to c5 and we advance pieces in the center either.
 
I think instead silver would response Rg3w hh3w Hf4n mg4w or similar but again it looks to me that the tactics to keep the silver horse safe would require the silver elephant to stay near f3 for a while, though I don't know if we'd have enough free steps to make any progress at c6.
 
I guess this inquiry is mostly moot as it is poll closing time, and these moves aren't in it anyway.  But I'm intrigued what the consensus would have been if more eyes had been put on these lines earlier.
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #41 on: Nov 20th, 2015, 5:47am »
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Will we be fine after mh4 Rg5 hg3?
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deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #42 on: Nov 20th, 2015, 1:57pm »
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on Nov 12th, 2015, 5:22pm, deep_blue wrote:
What if we played 10g Hf3w Mb4n Mb5s hb6s (He3 hb5) then? I don't see any immediate E blockade or any other severe consequences and then I do like our position.

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half_integer
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #43 on: Nov 20th, 2015, 4:01pm »
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After the move mentioned by Hippo, I think we're generally in good shape.  The silver elephant is still needed in the east to maintain the pattern and the silver horse and camel cannot leave the southeast easily, which I think leaves us with the effective strongest free piece, our camel.  With that we should be able to do more damage than whatever silver can do for trap control at f3.
 
I expect the silver camel will move west, not east, on 9s.  But I'm unsure of the exact set of horse and camel moves silver will choose.
 
I do think that if he double protects the f3 trap his elephant will still need to stay there too; we can create threats too quickly with our elephant already there.
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Re: 2015 Move 9g
« Reply #44 on: Nov 20th, 2015, 5:41pm »
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Things seem to get interesting in a hurry with 9s H:Rg2 Mf4 Ee3.  The horse can be flipped out of f3, but not too easily threatened, on the following move.  Meanwhile we have to spend at least 2 steps to defend it on 10g, so pulling b6 would have to wait at least a turn.
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