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Topic: 2010 Postal Mixer (Read 12990 times) |
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Hippo
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Arimaa player #4450
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #45 on: May 4th, 2010, 11:20am » |
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on May 4th, 2010, 10:21am, Fritzlein wrote:
You might look at the "dumb" forward rabbit in the center in the choices "ad" and "ce", which each occurred for the first time this year, and conclude that those setups, at least, must be the work of ignorant noobs, but you would be wrong. One of them was the choice of an ignorant expert, namely me! 
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But you used it against clueless which ignores possibility of pulling rabbits in the openning. Human could change mind, but the bot's strategy is fixed so you just played anti-clueless, knowing it will not punish the inacurracy.
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jdb
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #46 on: May 4th, 2010, 1:09pm » |
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IN my opinion, ngerhart used the best opening of any against clueless. He has the best position of anyone, so far.
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Fritzlein
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update
« Reply #47 on: Jun 22nd, 2010, 10:25pm » |
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87 games have completed, almost three-fifths of the slate even throwing out the 8 games lost on time before they got started. Only two players, megajester and camelback, have yet to complete a game. In addition to Simon and Wyntre who timed out all their games, six participants have played all their games to completion: azgreg, Korhil, Sconibulus, student_t_w, toby1kenobi, and willwould.
This is a large percentage of completed games given that only 77 of the allotted 300 days have elapsed. Every year I fear that some slow game which drags on for a hundred moves will be arbitrarily decided by the 300-day time cutoff, and every year my fears prove unfounded.
The current lead of +5 is shared by chessandgo and Nombril, each with five wins and no losses. Nombril, however, has a better chance of winning the overall tournament, because he signed up for ten games total while chessandgo signed up for only six total and thus can't finish above +6. Last year a score of +7 was required for victory, and that was the lowest winning total ever. Another inducement to sign up for many games!
OpFor and clueless are both acquitting themselves very well so far. OpFor's victory over Tuks would have been triumph enough, but then OpFor took the biggest scalp ever by a bot in a postal tournament, defeating Adanac in just 30 moves.
Clueless is 5-1 so far, at +4 only a point behind the tournament leaders. Also clueless took advantage of a couple of weak tactical moves on my part to win a dog from me for nothing. I may have recovered enough that my position fully compensates for my lost material, but clueless still has potential to take me down in a tense position.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 22nd, 2010, 10:27pm by Fritzlein » |
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Hippo
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #48 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 3:55am » |
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Yes, clueless plays rather well  and each completed game of it reduces it's potential problems with lowered time reserves (I am already horse down, but still with hopes for improvements).
Actually ... clueless will be leading tonight, but just for a while if I correctly predict its moves. Nombril's chances to remain around best three are really high.
Interesting, how many directed cycles in results were already created.
BTW: While I was writing this, clueless swarmed against me even with cats ... interesting
I would be really interested on bot's evaluation scores of all positions obtained in their games.
I hope both of them did log such informations and I hope it is not secret
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| « Last Edit: Jul 1st, 2010, 1:24pm by Hippo » |
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chessandgo
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #49 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 4:44am » |
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impressive performance by both bots ...
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rbarreira
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #50 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 5:22am » |
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jdb and Janzert: How did you set up the bots to play many games simultaneously? Some sort of automatic script, or do you manually go and start up the bot for a specific game every once in a while?
About how long are the bots thinking for on each move?
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| « Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2010, 5:29am by rbarreira » |
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jdb
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #51 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 8:22am » |
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on Jun 23rd, 2010, 3:55am, Hippo wrote:
I would be really interested on bot's evaluation scores of all positions obtained in their games.
I hope both of them did log such informations and I hope it is not secret |
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I have the log file for clueless for most of the postal tournament. The first couple weeks or so are missing. If someone reminds me, I'll post it after the games are all finished.
Clueless' search is getting between 17-20 steps in the 4 hours it thinks for each move.
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Hippo
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #52 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 9:28am » |
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@jdb: Do you have separate log files or just one common? In the former case it would be nice to publish each one after the game is finished. In the later case it would be nice to have parser allowing to convert it to the former case .
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jdb
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #53 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 10:32am » |
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on Jun 23rd, 2010, 9:28am, Hippo wrote:| @jdb: Do you have separate log files or just one common? In the former case it would be nice to publish each one after the game is finished. In the later case it would be nice to have parser allowing to convert it to the former case . |
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Its all one big log file. It is easy enough to parse, but not by me.
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Hippo
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #54 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 11:24am » |
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@jdb: OK, than I would be looking forward to the last clueless postal mixer game finished.
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Isaac Grosof
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #55 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 1:56pm » |
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To whoever runs this tournament: My mother would like to know if my ban from the Arimaa World League also bans me from this tournament. Please reply ASAP.
PS: Who runs this tournament, anyways? The official page, here, doesn't say.
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Sorry about that one thing.
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jdb
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #56 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 3:23pm » |
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on Jun 23rd, 2010, 1:56pm, 722caasi wrote:To whoever runs this tournament: My mother would like to know if my ban from the Arimaa World League also bans me from this tournament. Please reply ASAP.
PS: Who runs this tournament, anyways? The official page, here, doesn't say. |
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I would guess that the world league has no effect on the postal mixer.
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omar
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #57 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 7:53pm » |
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on Jun 23rd, 2010, 1:56pm, 722caasi wrote:To whoever runs this tournament: My mother would like to know if my ban from the Arimaa World League also bans me from this tournament. Please reply ASAP.
PS: Who runs this tournament, anyways? The official page, here, doesn't say. |
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Most everyone qualified to be a director tends to play in the postal mixer so for many years this event has slipped by without having an official director
From what the world league coordinator and director stated I think it is can be concluded that the penalty does not impact your participation in any event outside of the league.
"Because this is a case of willful cheating, the League Director and I have agreed to declare 722caasi's game a forfeit, and bar him from any participation in this League and any other League starting in 2010."
So no ruling by the postal mixer director is needed
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Janzert
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #58 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 7:59pm » |
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I use the script included with the AEI software package called "postal_controller.py". Basically it connects to the gameroom, checks for any postal games that are on the bots turn, and then has the engine play in each of them. It does a pretty good job but does occasionally crash or go haywire if it encounters connection problems.
Janzert
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| « Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2010, 7:59pm by Janzert » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #59 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 11:33pm » |
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And just while we are praising clueless, it pulls into a tie for the lead by beating Eltripas in this game. Six wins and one loss leave clueless at +5, with nine games to play, and thus plenty of chance to top the standings by tournament end.
If you had showed me the first sixteen moves of this game four years ago and asked me which side was played by the bot, I would have said Silver was the bot, because Gold was playing with a plan, namely the camel hostage strategy. It is sobering to see computer behavior that appears plan-driven. It is sobering also to see a computer get an edge in the opening, not due to a tactical blunder by the opponent, but rather due to the accumulation of positional advantage.
For the present I can take comfort in the fact that clueless still has many strategic blind spots. There are still multiple ways to exploit its weaknesses. But I am reminded that there is no reason in principle that a bot shouldn't be able to do what I do strategically. It's a hard problem, but not an impossible one.
The more success bots have, the more I cast an eager, nervous eye to 2011. The progress of the bots feel inexorable, while the progress of the human community in understanding more feels speculative. How long will we be able to stay ahead? The march of the deathly machines makes me all the more grateful for the Arimaa World League, and for Jean's forthcoming book, and for the planned Arimaa Festival. We need to share our knowledge, cross-pollinate our strategies, and in all ways work together to demonstrate the power of our biological brains.
For now it is up to the biological brains of JDB and other developers to grasp communal Arimaa strategy knowledge and translate it into machine-comprehensible formulas. This is our margin of safety. If Omar gets his way and computers start learning Arimaa strategy on their own, the end will be at hand.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 27th, 2010, 5:38pm by Fritzlein » |
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