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Topic: 2010 Postal Mixer (Read 12988 times) |
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jdb
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #75 on: Jul 9th, 2010, 12:09pm » |
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Good job Fritz.
Clueless saw the forced loss on move 31b. It figured it was pretty much doomed for several moves before that.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #76 on: Jul 9th, 2010, 12:39pm » |
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on Jul 9th, 2010, 12:09pm, jdb wrote:| Clueless saw the forced loss on move 31b. |
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Ah, thanks. In that case I probably had a goal in four that I missed? Not that I feel too bad about missing a goal in four in exchange for a goal in five. Or was the forced loss clueless saw on 31s a goal in five? That would be an amazing search depth even for a four-hour think.
Quote:| It figured it was pretty much doomed for several moves before that. |
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I'll hit you up for the log file after the tournament so that I can see the exact decline in clueless's expectations. If there was a sudden drop in evaluation, one could look to see whether it came the move after a blunder, but I have a hunch it didn't. My guess would be that clueless' eval dropped only slightly between the blunder of 19s and its first chance to realize it on 20s. Meanwhile I'll guess that the biggest drops in eval came after moves in which clueless did something reasonable but it was too late.
Thanks again for entering clueless in the tournament. I expected a cakewalk but got a learning experience and a caution for the future.
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Hippo
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #77 on: Jul 19th, 2010, 2:13am » |
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So the most important games for the postal mixer are Nombril/ChrisB and as expected chessandgo/Fritzlein ... the games between undefeated players with lot of wins so far.
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chessandgo
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #78 on: Jul 19th, 2010, 4:25am » |
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on Jul 19th, 2010, 2:13am, Hippo wrote:| So the most important games for the postal mixer are Nombril/ChrisB and as expected chessandgo/Fritzlein ... the games between undefeated players with lot of wins so far. |
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I fear there is less and less suspense for the latter with each new move ...
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #79 on: Jul 19th, 2010, 6:36am » |
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Jean, I will optimistically interpret your comment to mean you are despairing of saving your wayward central rabbit. 
As an interesting footnote to our game, I note that all three material evaluators (DAPE, FAME, and HarLog) say that I would be hurt to trade H for DR and I would be hurt to trade DR for H. In other words, they all reflect in some way my own rule of thumb that the player with the deputy doesn't want piece trades. This is confirmation that material evaluation formulas have surpassed anything that can be done with static piece values.
Hippo, you are too modest. You, too, are undefeated, and the position in our game is more tense and balanced than the position in my game against chessandgo. Unless your comment coincided with your decision to take our game off the "games to watch" list? If so, I accept your psychological resignation. As Bobby Fischer once said, "I like the moment when I break a man's ego." 
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| « Last Edit: Jul 19th, 2010, 6:51am by Fritzlein » |
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chessandgo
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #80 on: Jul 19th, 2010, 11:41am » |
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Make that a *Horse* and you'll be quite right Btw, I think indeed that trading your horse for DR would be great for me (how about when I've lost an extra Rabbit though?), I'd guess I might be somewhat indifferent to trading dr for H ... how bad do the Evaluators evaluate the latter trade?
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| « Last Edit: Jul 19th, 2010, 11:44am by chessandgo » |
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Hippo
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #81 on: Jul 19th, 2010, 11:49am » |
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Thanks Fritz , in current time I am fighting not to finish 2:6.
I have more time now, but it seems to me more time I think about the games worse result it gives  .
In our game the 39s was much weaker then I expected, as well as 40s. Especially the 37g demonstrated your powers.
I would probably delay playing that game for a while not to make too weak 42s . At least we would be rather equal for longer time if not for longer number of moves  .
And of course I cannot comment your game with c&g or make any predictions
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| « Last Edit: Jul 19th, 2010, 11:54am by Hippo » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #82 on: Jul 19th, 2010, 3:26pm » |
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on Jul 19th, 2010, 11:41am, chessandgo wrote:| Btw, I think indeed that trading your horse for DR would be great for me (how about when I've lost an extra Rabbit though?) |
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If you get my H for DRR, I will be slightly happy. You would be so depopulated (eight pieces left to my ten) that I could hardly make a bad rabbit advance from then on, even though my camel is overloaded trying to contain your HD so I would have to centralize it on defense. The material evaluators agree with me, I think mostly because you would be down to three rabbits and they value those late rabbits even more highly than I do. Here is what they think the net value of the two trades would be, from your perspective:
H for DR
DAPE: +0.27
FAME: +0.70
HarLog: +0.55
H for DRR
DAPE: -3.60
FAME: -0.81
HarLog: -1.44
That second DAPE score is not a typo; its evaluation swings almost four points when you take off your fourth-last rabbit in that situation.
Quote:| I'd guess I might be somewhat indifferent to trading dr for H ... how bad do the Evaluators evaluate the latter trade? |
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Again, from your perspective:
DR for H
DAPE: +0.50
FAME: +0.14
HarLog: +0.86
I tend to disagree with your indifference and agree with the formulas, because the value of the deputy lies greatly in the ability to make two simultaneous material threats. As the board depopulates, the opposing elephant has an increasingly easy job to take the threat the deputy is making and turn it into a threat against the deputy itself, if not into an immediate goal threat. A supporting cast of small pieces is necessary to make the deputy effective.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 19th, 2010, 4:49pm by Fritzlein » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #83 on: Jul 19th, 2010, 4:48pm » |
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on Jul 19th, 2010, 11:49am, Hippo wrote:| Especially the 37g demonstrated your powers. |
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Thank you! At that point I felt I was teetering on the edge, barely holding my position together, but now that my rabbit has wandered from c1 to h4 my position feels much more tenable.
Quote:| I would probably delay playing that game for a while not to make too weak 42s . |
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It is my great advantage to be unemployed and therefore able to think as long as I like about every move.
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Hippo
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #84 on: Jul 21st, 2010, 5:41pm » |
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on Jul 19th, 2010, 6:36am, Fritzlein wrote:Jean, I will optimistically interpret your comment to mean you are despairing of saving your wayward central rabbit.
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Hmmm, interesting. Fritz psychic powers made the rabbit jump to the trap itself ...
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chessandgo
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #85 on: Jul 22nd, 2010, 8:11am » |
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on Jul 21st, 2010, 5:41pm, Hippo wrote:
Hmmm, interesting. Fritz psychic powers made the rabbit jump to the trap itself ... |
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haha! Kinda handy, isn't it?
Thanks for the numbers Karl! I guess I'm probably wrong in still viewing H as strong as dr. And I meant the h for DR exchange with an other gold Rabbit down (as is now the case). Indeed, I'd take a drr for H exchange basically no matter what (say, unless a pair of elephants and a pair of camels have been traded^^).
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Hippo
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #86 on: Jul 22nd, 2010, 5:17pm » |
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I am not sure where to write it ... here or to the site discussion ...
The order of columns in "view games" is alphabetical, but the order inside of columns seems to be random.
I would be much more happy with ordering inside of columns by descending time of finish.
So unfinished games would be shown at the top and first finished one at the bottom ...
May be even better but more dynamic ordering, which is generalisation of the mentioned one ... by the time of the last move played.
I don't know how big complication it would cause ...
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Hippo
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #87 on: Jul 23rd, 2010, 12:07pm » |
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One thing should be mentioned and was not yet .... here alheady is one player with perfect record: novacat won 4 of 4. Congratulations
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #88 on: Jul 23rd, 2010, 1:27pm » |
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Yes, well done novacat! Too bad you only got to play three of your four games. Abandoned games were the reason we initially instituted an entry fee, but it seems that for the tournament overall, most games are being played to a natural conclusion, so perhaps abolishing the entry fee has worked by and large.
Hippo, it appears the games are displayed in the order that they were created by the pairing algorithm. I, too, think this could be improved on, perhaps from fewest to most moves played, with completed games at the bottom. Actually, what would be most convenient is to list at the top the games in which one has the least time remaining, but Omar explained to me that this is technically difficult for some reason. And there is some virtue in having an order that doesn't change, although if the order is fixed I think I would prefer it to be by opponent rating.
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Hippo
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Re: 2010 Postal Mixer
« Reply #89 on: Jul 23rd, 2010, 3:43pm » |
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OK, if the order should remain static, I would prefere the same order inside columns as the order of columns ... so either both alphabetically or rather both by rating.
Omar please ignore my proposals whenever you want. You have created beautiful site and you have a lot of other stuff to do. I fully respect it. I just hope they could be helpful to have them in mind when working on stuff they are addressing.
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