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Topic: 2011 WC - Commentary and Reporting (Read 12663 times) |
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Nombril
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Re: 2011 WC - Commentary and Reporting
« Reply #75 on: Jan 31st, 2011, 3:15pm » |
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Yes, as a spectator, for me the impact of the delay is small to the point of being insignificant.
I had originally thought that the apparent think time not being in sync for the viewed move was not worth worrying about. But now that I have experienced it both ways I much prefer the fixed delay (even at 3x).
on Jan 31st, 2011, 2:15pm, Fritzlein wrote:| What I definitely wouldn't like to see is a fixed four-minute delay. |
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I had taken this to mean a fixed 8-min delay would be OK for you to give commentary, since 4 was too short and 12 was OK. I guess I misunderstood where the threshold was for you.
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Hippo
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Re: 2011 WC - Commentary and Reporting
« Reply #76 on: Jan 31st, 2011, 3:21pm » |
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I like the 12 minutes delay. I don't have problem with skip to/from the future. I just start watching 12 minutes later ... so the only problem is the post game waiting for spectators.
I actualy need another future ... it would be much more fun if player of the finished game could enter the spectator's mode to know what are others talking about waiting without this knowledge is hmmm inconvinient.
There is an option with fake/guest accounts, but logging during the game would be required ... . So possibility to enter already finished game not replyed yet would be helpful. And ability to switch self to delay mode as well.
OK there is one more inconvinience ... switching from commentary mode to player mode shortens the gap by 12 minutes ...
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| « Last Edit: Jan 31st, 2011, 3:28pm by Hippo » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2011 WC - Commentary and Reporting
« Reply #77 on: Jan 31st, 2011, 3:34pm » |
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on Jan 31st, 2011, 3:15pm, Nombril wrote:| I had taken this to mean a fixed 8-min delay would be OK for you to give commentary, since 4 was too short and 12 was OK. I guess I misunderstood where the threshold was for you. |
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Sorry; the problem was that I hadn't fully thought it through myself. It occurred to me while thinking about it that the times at which help from commentary is most likely to be useful are the times when both players are already dipping into their reserve. So although 2*T is an average delay of four moves in the preliminary, it is exactly the critical points of the game when 2*T is likely to be less than a two-move delay.
Anyway, I didn't realize you were interpreting what I said. I thought that the suggestion of 2*T was your own opinion of what would be a safe margin. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 31st, 2011, 3:35pm by Fritzlein » |
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Adanac
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Re: 2011 WC - Commentary and Reporting
« Reply #78 on: Jan 31st, 2011, 4:29pm » |
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[on Jan 31st, 2011, 2:52pm, Fritzlein wrote:
I guess everyone will have a different estimation of (a) how much a cheater could benefit from listening to live commentary, (b) how likely anyone is to take advantage of that benefit by cheating, (c) how damaging it is to the World Championship and to the Arimaa community if cheating does occur, and (d) how much of a burden it is on the spectators to see a delayed game.
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Here are my thoughts:
(a) The greater the difference between the player’s and the commentator’s rating, the greater the benefit. I’d have no problem with live commentary if two 1800-rated commentators were discussing the World Championship Final, but it’s a big problem if World Champion commentators are discussing a game between 1800-rated players.
(b) Fairly high in a large Open tournament, extremely low in the Top 8 Finals. Low because there will be less of a gap in talent between commentators and players and Top 8 Finalists have already proven their skills during the time-delayed Open Classic.
(c) It would be a huge credibility blow to holding online tournaments if cheating were discovered in the WC.
(d) Very low once spectators get used to tuning in at quarter past the hour rather than the scheduled time. The unsynchronized clocks were the biggest problem but that’s been resolved with the new system. It’s the players who get the real benefit & drawbacks of delayed broadcasts. I like Nombril’s suggestion of using the delay period to review the game if you want to participate in a post-game interview. That could actually help the spectators quite a bit because the interviewee will be better prepared to discuss the game. It’s a mixed bag for players in other games the same day. If your game precedes the one that you want to watch, the delay helps you. If your game occurs later then you’ll lose 12-15 minutes of viewing time. Same thing with time zones: if the game you want to watch is early in the morning then the delay helps. If it’s late at night, it hurts. Again, it’s the players who will be affected the most: if you’re playing late at night, or in the morning before work/class, you’ll be less likely to participate in a post-game interview (or discuss the game in chat) if you have to wait 12-15 minutes after the game.
I lobbied for a shorter delay earlier, especially for the Finals when the delay will increase to 15 minutes. But now that I’ve typed out my thoughts, I realize that I have no serious problem with a 15 minute delay. Eliminating this type of cheating is a big advantage whereas these drawbacks are all relatively minor:
1. Ideally players shouldn’t login to the chatroom until the game has ended for the spectators. In reality, that never seemed to happen during round 4.
2. Longer delays will slightly reduce the chances of getting post-game interviews with the players (same thing with chatroom discussions).
3. New fans of Arimaa might get discouraged if they show up at the start of a game only to learn that they have to wait 12-15 extra minutes for the “real” spectator start time.
4. Some spectators may feel that games are less exciting knowing that all the moves occurred in the past. I’m one of those people, but I suppose I can get used to delayed broadcasts without too much trouble. It usually doesn’t bother me that sports are not truly “live”.**
** except Toronto Maple Leaf home games. I live next to the Air Canada Centre and the foghorn gives away Leaf goals 30+ seconds before they actually occur. Very annoying! Fortunately, the only Arimaa equivalent is players revealing the outcome in the chatroom, but once we get used to the delay that habit should be weaned out of us.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 31st, 2011, 4:52pm by Adanac » |
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Hippo
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Re: 2011 WC - Commentary and Reporting
« Reply #79 on: Jan 31st, 2011, 4:58pm » |
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Supppose players could enter the delayed mode after the game ends. If there is radio broadcast, they could silently listen letting the game actually ended in secret.
If there is no teamspeak broadcast, they could fetch chat archive and let it be secret as well.
But in the case teamspeak broadcast (must in the case of parallel games), they would be cut of the commentary or the secret vanishes.
I don't know what's the best decision.
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rbarreira
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Re: 2011 WC - Commentary and Reporting
« Reply #80 on: Jan 31st, 2011, 5:55pm » |
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I think the current solution of using a time delay is probably the best one. It keeps the game experience as close to reality as possible, with no distortion on thinking times which for me was annoying with the two-move delay.
All that's needed for it not to spoil the spectator experience is for the players to not comment on the game until the lagged game is over.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 31st, 2011, 5:56pm by rbarreira » |
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Nombril
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Re: 2011 WC - Commentary and Reporting
« Reply #81 on: Jan 31st, 2011, 6:09pm » |
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The 2x delay had originally been 99of9's suggestion, I was just repeating it in a hope to find common ground between those that wanted a delay and those that didn't. Maybe it was optimistic that there was an answer that would make everyone happy? 
I'll point out that the actual case of cheating during the AWL involved a player using a specific move that was suggested for a particular turn, so even a 4 min delay would have prevented it. Though with a static position, sometimes the move is available a turn later, so I'm happy with 2x or 3x delay.
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omar
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Re: 2011 WC - Commentary and Reporting
« Reply #82 on: Feb 1st, 2011, 10:38am » |
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John (The_Jeh) it would be get complicated to add a time delay that pauses to make sure it maintains a time game of two moves. Even a straight forward fixed time delay was complicated to add. Also initially I didn't think that a fixed time delay would be sufficient to prevent cheating because a could build up reserve and then move very slow to have the commentary and game position sync. Fortunately games that have a maximum time per turn can provide a guarantee that this cannot happen.
What was really annoying me about the move based delays was we kept having to explain in the commentary that because the player is thinking for a long time now it mean that two moves later the position required a long think; then when we get to that position the player moves fast because two moves later there was a trade. The commentator didn't get to talk about the position that required a long think. Also climatic endings like the rabbits vs chessandgo were getting ruined by the last few moves suddenly appearing and the client making the win/lose sound while the commentator is still talking about a tense position. Also recording just the audio of the commentary was of no use because it could not be synced later using the auto-play feature of the client.
As a spectator I find the time delayed games much more enjoyable than the move delayed games. Experiencing the time a player spent on a move feels like it's a critical part of watching a live game.
Remember that not all games can be delayed by time. It is limited only to games that have a maximum time per turn. Also postal games will never by delayed by time and only by moves. Someday I'm going to have to add a field to the database to force a game to be delayed or not delayed. It's on my todo list.
I think I've fixed the problem with the finished game showing up as a recent game or other list in the gameroom. So spectators will not have any way to tell the result of the game unless the players leak it. The players will need a little time to get used to not showing up in the chatroom as soon as the game is over. I forgot about it myself 
Vladan (Hippo), the players can watch the game as a spectator by opening it from the 'Live Games' section rather than opening it from the 'My Games' section.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2011 WC - Commentary and Reporting
« Reply #83 on: Feb 1st, 2011, 11:55am » |
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on Feb 1st, 2011, 10:38am, omar wrote:| Vladan (Hippo), the players can watch the game as a spectator by opening it from the 'Live Games' section rather than opening it from the 'My Games' section. |
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Omar, did you just make a change to this? It has not been true so far. That is to say, when the game was over, it disappeared from the 'Live Games' section. The people who were already watching it could continue to spectate, but the players themselves could not start spectating after the game ended.
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Hippo
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Re: 2011 WC - Commentary and Reporting
« Reply #84 on: Feb 1st, 2011, 1:26pm » |
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on Feb 1st, 2011, 10:38am, omar wrote:
Vladan (Hippo), the players can watch the game as a spectator by opening it from the 'Live Games' section rather than opening it from the 'My Games' section.
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OK, I have not tried that. I were not expecting that. But at least for postal games that works well ... my event games are delayed by 2 turns if opened from postal games menu.
So player have to open 2nd window from live games before the game ends to know when the game ends for spectators (rather than measuring 12 minutes). And if there is radio brodcast he can enjoy the dejavue.
So you all recommend not to enter the chatroom before the delay "disappears"? Even in case of technical problems?
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ocmiente
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Re: 2011 WC - Commentary and Reporting
« Reply #85 on: Feb 2nd, 2011, 5:33pm » |
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For anyone who knows how to edit the Wiki, on the 2011 Open Classic Round 3 Wiki page, the link to 722caasi vs. ocmiente is incorrect. The correct game number is 168789.
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megajester
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Re: 2011 WC - Commentary and Reporting
« Reply #86 on: Feb 2nd, 2011, 5:55pm » |
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on Feb 2nd, 2011, 5:33pm, ocmiente wrote:
Done
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2011 WC - Commentary and Reporting
« Reply #87 on: Feb 4th, 2011, 9:44am » |
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Well, the layer of ice that cancelled four days of school has now been supplemented by 3-4 inches of snow. We were planning to go to a Mendelssohn concert this evening, but now that has been cancelled too. I have been cooped up in this house so long I am going crazy! And we don't even have a television... but anyway, as long as I am here, I might as well give commentary on Nombril vs. hanzack.
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mistre
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Re: 2011 WC - Commentary and Reporting
« Reply #88 on: Feb 4th, 2011, 11:17am » |
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on Feb 1st, 2011, 10:38am, omar wrote:J
I think I've fixed the problem with the finished game showing up as a recent game or other list in the gameroom. So spectators will not have any way to tell the result of the game unless the players leak it. The players will need a little time to get used to not showing up in the chatroom as soon as the game is over. I forgot about it myself
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Glad you could fix this - it was anticlimatic to see the game conclusion in the gameroom before the game was finished!
As for players not showing up in the chat until the game is over for spectators - is there any way this can be enforced or at least timed so that the player knows when they can join the chat? Or is the player supposed to watch the end of his own game? Some kind of guideline would be helpful.
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Adanac
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Re: 2011 WC - Commentary and Reporting
« Reply #89 on: Feb 5th, 2011, 9:44am » |
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Is anyone else getting this error when they try to connect to TeamSpeak?
<10:39:57> Trying to resolve hostname talk.arimaa.com
<10:39:57> Trying to connect to server on talk.arimaa.com:9987
<10:40:03> Failed to connect to server
I've searched various forums to see if anyone could suggest a solution. Quite a few people have created threads about similar problems but I've yet to find any solutions.
My headphone works just fine and I've tried uninstalling and re-installing TeamSpeak with no luck.
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| « Last Edit: Feb 5th, 2011, 9:46am by Adanac » |
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