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Topic: 2011 Postal Mixer (Read 16506 times) |
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rbarreira
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Arimaa player #1621
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Re: 2011 Postal Mixer
« Reply #60 on: May 15th, 2011, 4:04am » |
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on May 14th, 2011, 4:55pm, Fritzlein wrote:mistre vs. briareus has a material balance you don't see every day. Assuming that briareus takes the rabbit next, it will be DDCCR for MHH. This is an interesting test for IdahoEv's thesis that we overvalue quality of pieces and undervalue quantity of pieces. All of his "empirically optimized" material evaluators prefer to have the more numerous pieces, whereas all of the standard hand-tuned evaluators prefer to have the stronger pieces.
What material evaluation does briareus use? |
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It uses FAME.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2011 Postal Mixer
« Reply #61 on: May 15th, 2011, 10:04am » |
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on May 15th, 2011, 4:04am, rbarreira wrote:
Thanks for clarifying. FAME does dislike Gold's material balance less than Harlog and DAPE do.
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Tuks
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Re: 2011 Postal Mixer
« Reply #62 on: May 16th, 2011, 11:35am » |
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bot_briareus has found a forced goal in our postal game, i haven't figured it out yet though, could be a good puzzle
it might be the only not losing defence though that briareus has taken, which would also explain the quick move.
ok, maybe not, it was a long forced goal but not a very hard one to figure out, just continue taking pieces until an opening arises...
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| « Last Edit: May 16th, 2011, 1:51pm by Tuks » |
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rbarreira
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Re: 2011 Postal Mixer
« Reply #63 on: May 17th, 2011, 3:47am » |
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on May 16th, 2011, 11:35am, Tuks wrote:bot_briareus has found a forced goal in our postal game, i haven't figured it out yet though, could be a good puzzle
it might be the only not losing defence though that briareus has taken, which would also explain the quick move.
ok, maybe not, it was a long forced goal but not a very hard one to figure out, just continue taking pieces until an opening arises... |
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22s, 23s, 24s and 25s were all forced. There might have been faster forced goals, but not much faster.
Since there appeared to be so many forced moves, I was running the bot on a separate computer for those moves in order to get the game over with faster 
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| « Last Edit: May 17th, 2011, 3:51am by rbarreira » |
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Tuks
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Re: 2011 Postal Mixer
« Reply #64 on: May 17th, 2011, 4:06am » |
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thank you, does briareus always pick the longest losing sequence when its forced, because i think it could have held out for another turn or two?
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rbarreira
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Re: 2011 Postal Mixer
« Reply #65 on: May 17th, 2011, 4:09am » |
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on May 17th, 2011, 4:06am, Tuks wrote:thank you, does briareus always pick the longest losing sequence when its forced, because i think it could have held out for another turn or two?
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In most cases it does, but in this case I think due to some missing goal patterns it missed the longest defense...
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UruramTururam
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Re: 2011 Postal Mixer
« Reply #66 on: Jun 20th, 2011, 1:14am » |
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on Mar 31st, 2011, 1:03am, Fritzlein wrote:
Quote:| I guess I'll need to learn first how to focus on a game position for a longer time than a minute or two! |
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Not necessarily; you could just as well learn how to not make a move the instant your focus gives out, but rather wait and return to the position the next day to see if something different occurs to you.  |
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Thank you for that advice Fritzlein! I try to follow it and my results are so far much better than I have ever expected.
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Caffa et bucella per attactionem corporum venit ad stomachum meum.
BGG Arimaa badges - get your own one!
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2011 Postal Mixer
« Reply #67 on: Jun 29th, 2011, 3:04pm » |
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on May 14th, 2011, 4:55pm, Fritzlein wrote:| mistre vs. briareus has a material balance you don't see every day. Assuming that briareus takes the rabbit next, it will be DDCCR for MHH. This is an interesting test for IdahoEv's thesis that we overvalue quality of pieces and undervalue quantity of pieces. All of his "empirically optimized" material evaluators prefer to have the more numerous pieces, whereas all of the standard hand-tuned evaluators prefer to have the stronger pieces. |
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The ghost of IdahoEv returns to haunt us, as quantity wins over quality: http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=188364
Briareus is presently 4-1 for a performance rating of 2238. (or 2155 if you calculate it the conservative way; in any case impressive) But briareus seems to be in trouble in the majority of its remaining games. To top clueless's record performance of 2072 last year, briareus needs to go 10-8 overall, i.e. winning six of its remaining thirteen games. That's a tall order, but there are enough tense games that it is definitely doable.
Bot . Year Record Postal Performance
--- ---- ------ ------------------
Bomb 2005 4-6 1716
Zombie 2007 1-14 1409
Sharp 2008 1-8 1568
OpFor 2008 8-9 2060
OpFor 2009 3-7 1798
OpFor 2010 6-8 1848
Clueless 2010 9-7 2072
Briareus 2011 4-1* 2238*
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2011 Postal Mixer
« Reply #68 on: Jun 29th, 2011, 3:05pm » |
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on Jun 20th, 2011, 1:14am, UruramTururam wrote:| Thank you for that advice Fritzlein! I try to follow it and my results are so far much better than I have ever expected. |
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It's always more fun to play well, especially when the opponent is also playing well.
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rbarreira
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Re: 2011 Postal Mixer
« Reply #69 on: Jun 29th, 2011, 4:41pm » |
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on Jun 29th, 2011, 3:04pm, Fritzlein wrote:
The ghost of IdahoEv returns to haunt us, as quantity wins over quality: http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=188364
Briareus is presently 4-1 for a performance rating of 2238. (or 2155 if you calculate it the conservative way; in any case impressive) But briareus seems to be in trouble in the majority of its remaining games. To top clueless's record performance of 2072 last year, briareus needs to go 10-8 overall, i.e. winning six of its remaining thirteen games. That's a tall order, but there are enough tense games that it is definitely doable.
Bot . Year Record Postal Performance
--- ---- ------ ------------------
Bomb 2005 4-6 1716
Zombie 2007 1-14 1409
Sharp 2008 1-8 1568
OpFor 2008 8-9 2060
OpFor 2009 3-7 1798
OpFor 2010 6-8 1848
Clueless 2010 9-7 2072
Briareus 2011 4-1* 2238* |
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Thanks for the analysis and detailed history Fritz!
But I have to disagree with one part though, out of the 13 remaining games in the postal mixer it seems to me Briareus is clearly losing in about 4-6 games at most (including a few where it's doing really bad). In the other ones it's either winning or about equal. Still, I agree that winning six more games is far from certain.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 29th, 2011, 4:42pm by rbarreira » |
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Hippo
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Re: 2011 Postal Mixer
« Reply #70 on: Jun 30th, 2011, 10:19am » |
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Daniel (Tuks) is the first player finishing this year postal mixer (not losing on time).
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Hippo
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Re: 2011 Postal Mixer
« Reply #71 on: Jul 8th, 2011, 1:06pm » |
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on Jun 29th, 2011, 3:04pm, Fritzlein wrote:
The ghost of IdahoEv returns to haunt us, as quantity wins over quality: http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=188364
Briareus is presently 4-1 for a performance rating of 2238. (or 2155 if you calculate it the conservative way; in any case impressive) But briareus seems to be in trouble in the majority of its remaining games. To top clueless's record performance of 2072 last year, briareus needs to go 10-8 overall, i.e. winning six of its remaining thirteen games. That's a tall order, but there are enough tense games that it is definitely doable.
Bot . Year Record Postal Performance
--- ---- ------ ------------------
Bomb 2005 4-6 1716
Zombie 2007 1-14 1409
Sharp 2008 1-8 1568
OpFor 2008 8-9 2060
OpFor 2009 3-7 1798
OpFor 2010 6-8 1848
Clueless 2010 9-7 2072
Briareus 2011 4-1* 2238* |
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So now is Briareus 7-1, who would guess such start.
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Swynndla
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Arimaa player #1821
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Re: 2011 Postal Mixer
« Reply #72 on: Jul 8th, 2011, 4:58pm » |
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Fritz said once that historically bots haven't shown much of an advantage by thinking at postal speeds (I guess because the arimaa branching factor is so huge).
Briareus is doing really well ... is this because:
1) It's running on a hexa-core and has been optimized for speed?
2) People are underestimating it and didn't think too much about the moves?
3) It has a very good evaluation function?
4) Something else?
I don't think it's number 3 as rbarreira has commented that the evaluation function isn't that good.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2011 Postal Mixer
« Reply #73 on: Jul 9th, 2011, 7:45am » |
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Yes, that's a phenomenal start for briareus. Now it looks likely that briareus will set a new record for bot postal performance. Omar explained in his game comments how he threw away a win from over-confidence; also briareus is thinking for longer per move than any bot has before. Otherwise I'm not sure how to explain briareus' great showing. In my game against briareus (not part of the Postal Mixer, but under the same conditions), it doesn't feel like briareus is putting up much of a fight.
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robinz
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Re: 2011 Postal Mixer
« Reply #74 on: Jul 9th, 2011, 7:56am » |
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on Jul 9th, 2011, 7:45am, Fritzlein wrote:| Omar explained in his game comments how he threw away a win from over-confidence; |
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on Jul 9th, 2011, 7:45am, Fritzlein wrote:| In my game against briareus (not part of the Postal Mixer, but under the same conditions), it doesn't feel like briareus is putting up much of a fight. |
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I must make a mental note to check out your game in a few weeks' time
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