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Topic: 2012 World Championship format (Read 15774 times) |
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #45 on: Mar 9th, 2011, 9:10am » |
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on Mar 9th, 2011, 8:02am, omar wrote:| Thanks for the suggestion. Here are the results: |
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Grouping those by the increment only:
1580 - 60s
1180 - 45s
613 - 30s
433 - 2min
395 - 15s
267 - 90s
200 - 4min
167 - 3min
146 - sudden death
I believe this supports what I was saying before about simplification. We can lose the sudden death entirely, replace the 2.5min and 3min with just 4min as a catch-all for "really slow", and get rid of the long list of "experimental" time controls. (If I remember correctly, the 3min time control only started to catch up to the 4min time control because you removed 4min from the list of options, and before that the 4min was more than twice as popular.) The shortened list will cover over 90% of what users actually want, and if they really want something off-list, they can use the new "custom" feature to get it.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 9th, 2011, 9:43am by Fritzlein » |
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omar
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #46 on: Mar 9th, 2011, 9:37am » |
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on Mar 6th, 2011, 3:20pm, rbarreira wrote:
In that case, the only potential remaining problem I see as far as bots go is that there's no maximum reserve limit in these suggested time controls, which might confuse bots that expect it (I'm pretty sure mine will have some problems with that).
I would recommend not changing bot controls unless there's very heavy demand for it, besides having to edit a lot of files you would also have to test all bots with the new time controls. |
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Yes, I'll need to test the bots with these time controls before changing it. I might have to set the max reserve limit to a very high value for bots that expect it. Eventually I would like to change them so that we are consistent.
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rbarreira
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #47 on: Mar 10th, 2011, 4:20am » |
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on Mar 9th, 2011, 9:37am, omar wrote:
Yes, I'll need to test the bots with these time controls before changing it. I might have to set the max reserve limit to a very high value for bots that expect it. Eventually I would like to change them so that we are consistent. |
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Setting a very high reserve limit should prevent any timeouts, but it won't prevent bad time management due to broken assumptions (including, for some bots, the usage of a significantly lower percentage of the time than they would normally use, as they'll be trying to accumulate reserve).
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| « Last Edit: Mar 10th, 2011, 4:21am by rbarreira » |
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Migi
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #48 on: Aug 22nd, 2011, 8:44pm » |
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I haven't been able to all posts on the 4 pages of this thread, so I'm sorry if I'm saying things that have already been said, but I would like to make a few notes about this:
on Jan 19th, 2011, 5:40pm, Fritzlein wrote:| Arimaa, by contrast, can't be enjoyed by people who don't know what is going on. |
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I disagree. I think everyone, even those who just learned the rules, can enjoy these videos. In fact, I have some evidence to back this up. I occasionally like to watch a YouTube video where a really strong chess player plays an online blitz match while giving his thoughts on the game as he plays, and the comments in those videos come from real beginners as well as other strong chess players.
It's true that a weaker player can't see all the tactics, and occasionally they think "why can't you just take piece X with your pawn?", to which there might be some refutation too deep for them to see. So they can't understand the game completely, but they can understand the commentary. Because commentary is mostly about strategy, and if it's about tactics then the tactics are explained. Actually, even world champion level strategy discussions can be understood by beginners. Being "weak" in the east, having pieces "tied up", etc can be understood by anyone, even if you don't know the specifics. There are also Arimaa-specific concepts like "hostage", "blockade", "frame", "phalanx" etc, but I think people pick up on these concepts really quickly. Definitely in a video. In fact, I think if you let a person with no knowledge of Arimaa watch the world championship with commentary for 10 to 20 minutes, they would know most of the rules, basic strategy, and have a rating of about 1200.
If someone would reupload all the commentated videos to YouTube, I think we might see some new players come from there (for example if these videos start showing up as "related videos" next to chess videos). But also it would give people a convenient place to watch, comment and discuss videos of past WC's.
If you agree, and give me permission, I would volunteer to make a new YouTube channel (called "arimaavideos" or something) and reupload all videos from http://arimaa.com/arimaa/mwiki/index.php/Videos that aren't already on YouTube to that channel. And if it turns out to be nothing, we haven't lost anything either. (One problem, though, is the fact that most videos are longer than 15 minutes. I guess I'll have to break up the videos in parts then? Does someone know a better solution for this?)
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #49 on: Aug 22nd, 2011, 10:19pm » |
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on Aug 22nd, 2011, 8:44pm, Migi wrote:| I disagree. I think everyone, even those who just learned the rules, can enjoy these videos. |
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I hope you are right, and I don't see why anyone would object to you trying to popularize Arimaa commentary videos among a broader audience. If it works we gain a larger base of players/fans, and if it doesn't work it has cost us nothing but your time and effort.
on Jan 20th, 2011, 12:15pm, omar wrote:| Karl, I think sensational players and great commentators is what attracts non-player spectators. I do agree that having more players would also help us gain more spectators. But, I think we differ on what we should do to gain more players. I think having more tournaments especially ones limited to intermediate and beginner level players throughout the year would help us gain more players. |
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Omar, revisiting this thread leaves me just as puzzled as I was before about your desire to limit the participation of World Championship to the top-rated players. The idea that beginner-only events would pull in lots of new players seems like a fantasy to me. Right now we have the Arimaa World League, where the ratings budgets mean that lower-rated players are guaranteed playing time and can expect to be paired with other lower-rated players, and we are broadcasting in the game room announcements that we need newcomers to join, and the Rockies are begging in the AWL forum for volunteers, and we can't get anyone lower than 1960 (Hirocon) to volunteer for us this week.
It is all well and good to envision ratings-limited tournaments to attract lower-rated players because such tournaments would, according to some logic, be more enjoyable for them, but the fact is that right now hardly anyone is signing up for just that type of game. I love the AWL, but it doesn't have the sex appeal of a championship.
Meanwhile last year's World Championship generated a huge paid participation. I admit that I have my moments of telling people that they should want something other than what they actually want, but in this case it seems crazy to be so dictatorial. If weaker players want to sign up for the Arimaa World Championship but otherwise basically ignore Arimaa events, why fight it? The drawing power of the Arimaa World Championship, for whatever psychological reason it happens, is a blessing that we should run with.
That's just my two cents, though. It's your show, and if you have determined on a course of action, I will also eventually say, although for different reasons, why fight it?
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Hippo
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #50 on: Aug 23rd, 2011, 12:41am » |
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Yes, I would like open WC. I am not sure how Nombril, but I would probably left comunity not being motivated by WC2010 participation. I don't think there is enough opportunity for talented newcommers to raise their WHR quickly enough to be included.
Migi@: With the linked feature of the YouTube videos it could be doable. Not all audios are of the top quality so you have to make a selection. (Probably starting backward in time from final games till you decided it's enough).
The openning phase waiting for the setup should be probably cut and may be rewritten to the headlines.
The ending phase on the contrary usually could stay as it is as it's much easier to skip end than start .
Yes I agree this effort could help popularise arimaa a lot more.
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Nombril
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #51 on: Aug 23rd, 2011, 8:24am » |
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Yes, it was really fun in 2010 hoping to be a dark horse and surprise people by out performing my starting rating. A new player's actual skill can often greatly exceed their current rating.
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chessandgo
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #52 on: Aug 26th, 2011, 12:08pm » |
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I can't remember if I posted here a few months ago, but I'm obviously in favor of an open-to-all WC as well.
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Harren
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #53 on: Aug 27th, 2011, 5:14am » |
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I am also in favour of an open WC, like it was the last few years. I probably wouldn't have played enough to have been able to participate this year with the new proposed rules.
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omar
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #54 on: Oct 25th, 2011, 7:00pm » |
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Thanks everyone for your feedback. It seems the most popular format for the 2012 WC would be a triple elimination tournament with no limit on the number of players.
However, this will be the last year that I will organize and serve as coordinator for the WC. In future years I would like the Arimaa community to organize it. The tools are now available to do that. Joel has been using them for the AWL. I think it's time I have less involvment in organizing the WC; this will help ensure the continuity of the WC. Perhaps the community can organize itself under some association similar to FIDE.
But this year I would like to run the WC tournament the way I want. So here is how it will work. I am giving away $200 USD to the best human Arimaa player. Anyone can come and claim it by registering to play in the WC tournament. The registration fee is $100 and it will be added to the WC prize fund. If no one else wants to challenge you then you will be crowned the champion and walk away with $300 without having played a single game. However, if others have also registered then a floating triple elimination tournament will be held to determine the champion. The prize fund will be divided by the number of games in the tournament and the winner of each game will receive this amount of the prize fund. There will not be tie breaker games for second and third place. But all players who achieve these levels will be recognized for these positions. There is no limit on the number of players that can register. Seeding for the tournament is based on WHR ratings. However, any player can pay more than the registration fee to improve their seeding. Thus, seeding is based on the amount above $100 the player has paid to register with ties broken by WHR ratings. All amounts paid to improve seeding are also added to the WC prize fund. There is no waiver of the registration fee. A player can withdraw from registration but will not be refunded the registration fee or any amount paid above it. The time control for all rounds will be 1m30s/6m/100/0/6h/6m.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #55 on: Oct 25th, 2011, 9:25pm » |
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This new format certainly increases the role of money. Last year many people who had little chance of winning back any prize money nevertheless thought that $10 was a reasonable entertainment fee to play in a six-round tournament. I doubt many would of those be back for $100 and possible elimination in three rounds.
For the sake of argument, let me explore the logical extreme of people deciding to enter the tournament or not based only on their expected prize payout, and not based at all on love of Arimaa or thrill of competing. I will use current WHR ratings to make a rough estimate of payouts, and for the moment neglect paying extra to improve seeding. Someone with a tournament simulator could produce more accurate numbers, but this is just a first pass.
Clearly chessandgo will profit from entering no matter who else competes. Should I enter too?
Player Rating Wins Payout
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chessandgo 2657 3.00 $254
Fritzlein 2561 1.73 $146
Since I stand to gain more than my $100 entry fee, I should definitely play. What about Adanac?
Player Rating Wins Payout
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chessandgo 2657 4.04 $260
Fritzlein 2561 2.81 $181
Adanac . 2400 0.92 $ 59
It turns out that Adanac will not recoup his entry fee on average, so he shouldn't enter. Of course, Adanac is underrated at the moment after a Postal Mixer he couldn't devote sufficient time to, whereas I am overrated for the opposite reason. But chessandgo's rating is approximately in line with his live play results, so jiggering the calculation by giving a few of my rating points to Adanac only swaps money between the two of us. Even if you fix it so that all three of us would profit on average, nobody else could profitably enter the tournament against the three of us. Anyone who tried would, on average, lose money, while increasing the expected profit of the top three.
The bluffing game of secretly paying more into the prize pool to get a better seeding may change this calculation somewhat, but I expect not by much. Even if player#4 got the top seed for free, he would still have to play each of the three of us in the first three rounds in order to respect the pairing rule avoiding repeat pairings above all else.
One way to look at it is that even in a three-way tournament, chessandgo is getting nearly $200 more than his entry fee on average. That leaves almost no room for anyone else to profit, on average, unless the prize fund is pumped up by greater fools with even lower rating who enter as well.
Admittedly, not everyone will make their calculation purely on expected return of money. Perhaps some will chalk up their expected net loss to the joy of playing in the Arimaa World Championship. Perhaps others will be disgusted that the tournament format seems to be about money rather than about Arimaa, and decline to enter even if they stand to profit.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #56 on: Oct 25th, 2011, 10:01pm » |
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Pardon me for psycho-analyzing, Omar, but this post leads me to guess that you are tired of being a slave to the demands of the Arimaa community. What is fun for us may be boring, taxing, and exhausting to you. It seems you have decided that you need to do what would be fun for you, even if it runs contrary to every opinion expressed by every other member of the Arimaa community as to what they think the ideal World Championship format would be.
I absolutely think that Arimaa needs to be fun for you. I know full well that you aren't likely to profit from Arimaa for many years to come, if ever. Given that Arimaa.com is a hobby that is a huge time drain, and a money sink as well, the only justification for your continuing to do it is that you are having fun.
It may be that my asking for things too often and offering thanks and/or offering assistance too seldom has somewhat undermined your Arimaa fun. If so, I apologize. Let me thank you again for inventing this great game, for giving us a place to play for free, for contributing prize money to tournaments, and for contributing countless hours on features and events that have made Arimaa.com enjoyable. If you have to pull the plug tomorrow for lack of time or money or enjoyment, I will be sad, but that won't take away from my debt of gratitude for more than seven years of recreation you have provided to me. Thank you and thank you.
If there are things that you have been doing, like running the World Championship, that are simply too much burden, I am happy that you are deciding that they need to be organized by someone else. Indeed, it would be better to have no World Championship whatsoever than to have the running of the World Championship cause you to burn out. I wholeheartedly support your decision to pass the baton on this and any other tasks that are making Arimaa.com a greater burden than it is a pleasure.
If we in the Arimaa community really love our game as much as we profess, then we will step up and make it happen. If not, well, at least we have the base server code which requires only minimal maintenance and the server rental fee. It is better to have a less spectacular hub of Arimaa activity than no such hub at all, which is what I foresee happening if you let the ever-needy community bleed you dry.
I was going to conclude with a plea that you pass the reins of running the World Championship already this year. I think the $100 entry fee you proposed is actively destructive of a great institution for Arimaa. Last year we had great participation, great promotion, great excitement for Arimaa built around the World Championship, and I simply don't see that happening again with a $100 charge at the door. We have a groovy thing going, even if we make zero format and/or software changes from last year, and I don't want to see that awesomeness go away.
On further reflection, however, I won't make that request. I want you to do what you enjoy. I want Arimaa to be fun for you again. If you aren't having fun, the party is over for everyone. Therefore, please do exactly as you please, and the result will be an adventure for all of us. I will hang on and try to enjoy the ride.
As I often say in chat before my live games, "Don't forget to have fun!"
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Hippo
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #57 on: Oct 26th, 2011, 6:04am » |
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What to say ... I am a bit tired from my Arimaa games this year.
Especially postal mixer taken me much more time I hoped.
I am thinking about skipping next year and concentrate myself on bot programming instead (I hope I have learned already what could be learned in reasonable amount of time). I expect I would watch the turnament anyways.
The entry fee is not the main incentive, compared with "Magic the Gathering" it would remain relatively cheap. I were not attending WC's with intention to gain money. But the number of players with intention to participate even on free WC is much smaller than the number of active MTG players, and there is no guarantee the 100$ would give that much fun for the participant.
I agree that in the case of 4 participants playing 3 games for 100$ is expensive enough. ... hmm on the contrary it would not last that long ... so I really don't know what I want.
But for arimaa propagation I do think short WC is worse.
... I hope c&g, Fritzlein and Nombril are granted ... I am looking forward to see the games.
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UruramTururam
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #58 on: Oct 26th, 2011, 9:55am » |
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Heh, heh. For the BGG members who want to play in the championships to obtain the rabbit microbadge it may turn to be the most expensive badge ever...
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Caffa et bucella per attactionem corporum venit ad stomachum meum.
BGG Arimaa badges - get your own one!
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omar
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #59 on: Oct 26th, 2011, 12:00pm » |
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I do enjoy running the Arimaa events each year. Except that last year the WC was more than I could handle. It wasn't because I was trying to commentate or record the games, it was just the burden of making sure all those games go smoothly and being available if things went wrong. It's like being on call the whole weekend. I wasn't able to give time to other things. What I can handle and what the community wants is diverging, so I hope the community will become more active and organize the WC next year.
Even though this years WC will have less participants, it should be quite interesting to watch. Now we will know who really believes they can take on the titans. If you really think you have a chance against these guys, put your money where your mouth is and get in the ring; it's open to everyone. Some may join just to play against the masters, but they will pay their dues for the lessons. Hopefully the event will be short and sweet, with no forfeits, commentary on every game and lots of fireworks on the board.
I'm really screwed if we have a turn out like last year
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