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Topic: 2012 World Championship format (Read 15776 times) |
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omar
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #60 on: Oct 26th, 2011, 12:52pm » |
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on Oct 25th, 2011, 9:25pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Player Rating Wins Payout
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chessandgo 2657 4.04 $260
Fritzlein 2561 2.81 $181
Adanac . 2400 0.92 $ 59
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I forgot to mention the payout could be more depending on how much spectators contribute to the prize fund. So it could be worth it even from just the money point of view for Adanac and others to play.
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Adanac
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #61 on: Oct 26th, 2011, 1:32pm » |
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Originally I wasn’t planning to participate this year due to the time commitments, but this sounds like it could be a really short WC. So maybe I will participate after all (it will be really short if I don’t practice  ). If we don’t get many participants then this tournament could be over within 2 months. I just hope that the large prize fund won’t lead to any cheating, but I don’t expect that it will.
A couple of questions:
Let’s suppose the champion goes 5-2 with 1 bye while the 2nd place finisher is 5-3. Would they receive the same prize money, based upon an equal number of wins, or is there a bonus for 1st place?
Will there be a spectator’s contest?
Are you going to participate Omar, since you are paying double the required entry fee?
Isn’t the lack of a refund and the desire to keep one’s participation a secret going to mean that everyone will join on the final day? That’s the opposite of last year where there were incentives to register early.
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aaaa
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #62 on: Oct 26th, 2011, 2:06pm » |
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$100 seems like an awful lot. Couldn't you perhaps ask for a pre-registration instead and then determine the main fee from the number of prospective participants? As a barrier, the pre-registration itself could require a little amount of money (possibly always refunded), so that those signing up would show at least some serious contemplation of participating.
Having money affect seeding seems like a horrible idea that would bring into disrepute the integrity of the championship. Why should how much money someone can spare, affect who is determined to be the best Arimaa player?
Really, between this proposal and a championship that, apart from being limited to the 16 highest rated participants, at least isn't so horribly elitist and inequitable, I'd choose the latter in a heartbeat.
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Adanac
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #63 on: Oct 26th, 2011, 2:37pm » |
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on Oct 26th, 2011, 2:06pm, aaaa wrote:$100 seems like an awful lot. Couldn't you perhaps ask for a pre-registration instead and then determine the main fee from the number of prospective participants? As a barrier, the pre-registration itself could require a little amount of money (possibly always refunded), so that those signing up would show at least some serious contemplation of participating.
Having money affect seeding seems like a horrible idea that would bring into disrepute the integrity of the championship. Why should how much money someone can spare, affect who is determined to be the best Arimaa player?
Really, between this proposal and a championship that, apart from being limited to the 16 highest rated participants, at least isn't so horribly elitist and inequitable, I'd choose the latter in a heartbeat. |
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Maybe we could get some sponsorship from Wall Street? They'll like a tournament that allows wealthy people to buy their way to the top.
That's also my least favourite rule. I don't mind a steep entry fee if Omar is really determined to limit the number of participants. But allowing people to "buy" a better seed seems very elitist.
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UruramTururam
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #64 on: Oct 26th, 2011, 2:54pm » |
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In fact the Community may well test its organizing skill and prepare a WCQ - a qualification tournament with $100 prize(s) but not to be payed in cash but as registration fees for the proper Championships. 
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Caffa et bucella per attactionem corporum venit ad stomachum meum.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #65 on: Oct 26th, 2011, 2:55pm » |
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on Oct 26th, 2011, 1:32pm, Adanac wrote:Originally I wasn’t planning to participate this year due to the time commitments, but this sounds like it could be a really short WC.
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Aha, someone does share Omar's goal of keeping the number of participants small. I stand corrected.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #66 on: Oct 26th, 2011, 3:17pm » |
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on Oct 26th, 2011, 1:32pm, Adanac wrote:Isn’t the lack of a refund and the desire to keep one’s participation a secret going to mean that everyone will join on the final day? That’s the opposite of last year where there were incentives to register early.
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I, for one, will delay my decision. I'm not sure how busy next semester will be; for example I may be starting research instead of continuing in my teaching assistantship position. If I were pressed for time and there wasn't a large entry fee, I would play in spite of being unprepared, but with $100 on the line, I would rather skip the tournament than play half-heartedly.
You are quite right about the reversed incentives for the timing of registration. Last year I wanted everyone to know I was playing. The more people that had already signed up, the more incentive there was for additional people to join. There was momentum. This year it is to my advantage to make everyone think I am not going to play. Maybe if it is two days before deadline and only chessandgo has signed up, then mistre will think, "Heck, I'll give it a shot." Once his dead money is in the pot (with no opportunity for a refund), my odds of turning a profit go up, so I can jump in at the last minute. Indeed this strategy will work extra well if I can convince chessandgo to join me in it. If he tells everyone he has quit Arimaa for poker, and I say I am too busy to play this year, maybe some 1500-rated player can be tricked into thinking he can steal the prize fund.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #67 on: Oct 26th, 2011, 3:23pm » |
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on Oct 26th, 2011, 1:32pm, Adanac wrote:| Will there be a spectator’s contest? |
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And will there be prize allocation again this year? And will there be a fee for the Postal Mixer?
The $10 fee for the 2011 Postal Mixer didn't improve things over 2010; on the contrary we had more timeouts despite the monetary incentive that I hoped would insure seriousness. Perhaps there were simply too many weeks between the time people signed up and the time play began. That is an argument for going back to the 2010 method: Let the Postal Mixer be free but don't open registration until the week before.
For anyone keeping tabs on my approval/disapproval of Omar's ideas, I thought he was nuts to make the 2010 Postal Mixer free, but that worked out well. So take my critique of his 2012 World Championship format with a grain of salt.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2011, 3:36pm by Fritzlein » |
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Adanac
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #68 on: Oct 26th, 2011, 3:28pm » |
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on Oct 26th, 2011, 2:55pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Aha, someone does share Omar's goal of keeping the number of participants small. I stand corrected. |
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What a difference a year makes. Last year I proposed a long series of matches between the top players.  But sometime during the spring or summer I just lost the energy for Arimaa (and all other hobbies) and haven't gotten that passion back yet.
What I like about Omar’s proposal is that everyone is welcome to join, but realistically we won’t have a tournament that extends into April. That’s probably not good for the Arimaa community, especially for spectators that like watching lots of Arimaa games, but it’s good for people like me that were waffling about joining a lengthy tournament.
And it’s not just me, Hippo also seems to be more likely to participate in a shorter tournament, but agrees that it's not necessarily in the best interests of the whole community:
on Oct 26th, 2011, 6:04am, Hippo wrote:What to say ... I am a bit tired from my Arimaa games this year.
Especially postal mixer taken me much more time I hoped.
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I agree that in the case of 4 participants playing 3 games for 100$ is expensive enough. ... hmm on the contrary it would not last that long ... so I really don't know what I want.
But for arimaa propagation I do think short WC is worse. |
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #69 on: Oct 26th, 2011, 3:43pm » |
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on Oct 26th, 2011, 3:28pm, Adanac wrote:| What a difference a year makes. Last year I proposed a long series of matches between the top players. But sometime during the spring or summer I just lost the energy for Arimaa (and all other hobbies) and haven't gotten that passion back yet. |
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If I end up playing, it will be to my advantage if you substitute money for passion, and put $100 into the pot without practicing or studying at all. But for me it would certainly work the opposite: if I don't have the time for Arimaa, I won't throw away money on Arimaa, whereas if I do have the time, then the probability of winning money will draw me in.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2011, 3:52pm by Fritzlein » |
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ocmiente
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #70 on: Oct 26th, 2011, 4:35pm » |
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I was wondering if I could pay to reduce my rating (half seriously)? Regarding the length of the tournament, it might be nice to play three of the top players with a good chance that some of the games might have live commentary for feedback, and then be eliminated. After participating for the first time last year, I can definitely see an advantage in having a short tournament. The obvious problem with this is if a weak player paid to be seeded at the top, then I wouldn't be able to play the top players by paying to decrease my rating. Good thing that's not an option. On the other hand, I could just intentionally trash my rating and get a low seeding for free...
Back to the post that started this thread, Omar suggested that "The WC tournament:
- Should try to select the best player.
- Should finish in a tolerable amount of time.
- Should allow a very large number of players to participate
- Should be fair
- Should be fun and interesting for spectators to follow
I'm OK with Omar's proposal, and will probably participate in the tournament with these terms as stated. $100 might be a little steep, but I've gotten a lot of free entertainment value from the Arimaa site, and figure it's a good way to support the community. However, regarding the tournament rules, to be fair, and (I think) objective, I do think that allowing money to influence the seeding may compromise the first and fourth bullets. The $100 entry fee compromises the 3rd. I have to conclude that bullet 2 is a priority. Fair enough. I can appreciate the desire for a short tournament.
If I am able to participate, I'll be playing for the experience rather than for winning any cash prize or winning the championship. So, I'm not inclined to get bent out of shape regardless of what the rules are.
I also think that opening up the 2013 tournament rules to the community gives all of us a great opportunity to shape the nature of the competition in the years to come.
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Dolus
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #71 on: Oct 26th, 2011, 5:00pm » |
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on Oct 26th, 2011, 9:55am, UruramTururam wrote:| Heh, heh. For the BGG members who want to play in the championships to obtain the rabbit microbadge it may turn to be the most expensive badge ever... |
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This is what I was thinking of. A $100 rabbit microbadge. 
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #72 on: Oct 26th, 2011, 6:43pm » |
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on Oct 26th, 2011, 4:35pm, ocmiente wrote:Back to the post that started this thread, Omar suggested that "The WC tournament:
- Should try to select the best player.
- Should finish in a tolerable amount of time.
- Should allow a very large number of players to participate
- Should be fair
- Should be fun and interesting for spectators to follow
[...]The $100 entry fee compromises the 3rd. |
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True, but notice that Omar gave the 3rd point the lowest priority, so he is being consistent. He wants a broad pool of players to play in other events, just not in the World Championship.
Part of the reason I have a different attitude is that these hypothetical other events geared towards beginners have never materialized. If there was even one other large live tournament, I might be persuaded by the argument that we shouldn't weigh down the World Championship with too many objectives. I might agree that we shouldn't let the objective of popularizing Arimaa interfere with the objective of crowning the best player. But the reality is that there is no other vehicle to share the load, so what we are taking out of the World Championship isn't being put into another event.
Hopefully 33 players will sign up again this year despite the $100 entry fee. Then we will have the best of both worlds. Here is an approximate outcome based on last year's results, given a $3500 prize pool and elimination after three losses.
Player Wins Money
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chessandgo 9 342
Adanac . 8 304
Tuks . 6 228
Fritzlein 5.5 209
Hippo . 5 190
The_Jeh. 4.5 171
jdb . 4.5 171
omar . 4.5 171
rabbits. 4 152
Nombril. 4 152
hanzack. 4 152
99of9 . 3 114
woh . 3 114
Nevermind 3 114
Sconibulus 3 114
ArifSyed 3 114
Harren . 2 76
ocmiente 2 76
megamau. 2 76
ChrisB . 2 76
knarl . 2 76
Heyckie. 2 76
qswanger 1 38
ginrunner 1 38
naveed . 1 38
oali . 1 38
722caasi 1 38
b599 . 1 38
beancrisp 0 .0
Belteshazzar 0 .0
Labradorboy 0 .0
ddyer . 0 .0
Rad . 0 .0
So the large field enriched the top, but also made it easier to break even for anyone above average. The money doesn't all fly to the top under a pay-per win system. So if lots of people register this year, I won't be able to look at Arimaa as a principal source of revenue, but I will be able to relax about whether I will lose money by playing.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2011, 6:52pm by Fritzlein » |
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megajester
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #73 on: Oct 27th, 2011, 12:39am » |
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on Oct 26th, 2011, 2:54pm, UruramTururam wrote:| In fact the Community may well test its organizing skill and prepare a WCQ - a qualification tournament with $100 prize(s) but not to be payed in cash but as registration fees for the proper Championships. |
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+1
From a purely theoretical standpoint, if you really want the best player in the world to be crowned champion you have to think of this. It's the same logic as making it possible for poor kids to win a scholarship to go to university.
I will not be participating in the WC, but I would just like to point out that $100 is an awful lot of money in some parts of the world. For example, the Turkish minimum wage is $340 per month, net.
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chessandgo
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #74 on: Oct 27th, 2011, 6:00am » |
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Omar, do you intend players to focus on the WC title or on money in this tournament? The rules seem to have a lot of emphasis on money.
It reminds me of what poker players call High Rollers tournaments: high buy-in, small (and usually strong) fields, some focus on glory, most focus on money. Would you consider making this tournament a "High Roller Arimaa Tournament", and having the WC 2012 have similar rules to the previous ones?
on Oct 26th, 2011, 12:00pm, omar wrote:
Now we will know who really believes they can take on the titans. If you really think you have a chance against these guys, put your money where your mouth is and get in the ring;
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I don't understand the bolded part. I don't think someone registering in a WC is thus claiming to be better than the current champ.
If I had had to make a money-expectation based decision to enter my first WC under such rules, I suppose I would have had to forfeit. By registering and playing I did not claim that I was better than Fritzlein and 99of9, as I wasn't, just that intended to play my best and take a shot at the title if things went my way. And otherwise to make the better players work for it, to be a worthy opponent and make them display their arimaa skills.
I like the fact that the champ is not necessarily the "best", but rather the one who played best in the given tournament. Everyone has a shot, everyone has to work for it, and in the end we can congratulate the winner for something done, and not for something been.
I wouldn't like that someone who would have a chance to become champion be unable to enter because his/her chances were too small. Doing one's best to overcome the odds in important games, that's what a championship is to me, and that's why it's fascinating. I think the title would be greatly devaluated by such "have-a-shot-at-it" players not being able (or at least strongly discouraged) to play.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 27th, 2011, 6:09am by chessandgo » |
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