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Topic: 2012 World Championship format (Read 15772 times) |
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Dolus
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Arimaa player #6845
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #75 on: Oct 27th, 2011, 10:03am » |
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on Oct 26th, 2011, 6:43pm, Fritzlein wrote:| Part of the reason I have a different attitude is that these hypothetical other events geared towards beginners have never materialized. If there was even one other large live tournament, I might be persuaded by the argument that we shouldn't weigh down the World Championship with too many objectives. I might agree that we shouldn't let the objective of popularizing Arimaa interfere with the objective of crowning the best player. But the reality is that there is no other vehicle to share the load, so what we are taking out of the World Championship isn't being put into another event. |
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I've been having fun introducing Arimaa to my local community. I've considered having a small tournament amongst some of them to spur more interest, and since I only have one board, I was considering making use of this site to run my local tournament, which would also add the benefit of forcing them to become members of this community.
If I can learn what's involved in running a tournament and how to do it, I think I'd be interested in making time to host a beginner tournament among the Arimaa community (and of course inviting outsiders to join). Clearly, I don't know the level of commitment involved, but I would like to figure out what would be involved/required, and see if I could feasibly put something together.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #76 on: Oct 27th, 2011, 11:58am » |
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on Oct 27th, 2011, 10:03am, Dolus wrote:| If I can learn what's involved in running a tournament and how to do it, I think I'd be interested in making time to host a beginner tournament among the Arimaa community (and of course inviting outsiders to join). |
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Omar created a tournament director tool. This can handle some things like pairing the players automatically (unless you want to pair them by hand), and creating scheduled games for people to sit down at the start of each round. There is still a fair bit of elbow grease involved on the part of the TD, but it sure beats meeting in the chat room and trying to orchestrate everything by chat (although you still want to have that component, too).
You might be able to convince a more experienced community member to be your TD, or you could just ask Omar to give you the permissions necessary to use the TD tool yourself. You probably also want to create a new forum thread for your event in the events category where you can ask questions and recruit players.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 27th, 2011, 12:00pm by Fritzlein » |
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megajester
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Istanbul, Turkey
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #77 on: Oct 28th, 2011, 1:46pm » |
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After finishing this post I realised it's rather long so I'm going to split it into topics.
If we're going to do it this way, let's make a meal of it.
If the field is going to be 8 players or less I would be in favour of a more traditional knockout tournament, with each match a best-of-3 or 5. A World Championship Tournament between 4 players consisting of 3 games just doesn't sound right.
How to realize point 3 in Omar's original checklist.
OK here's my idea, although I'm not sure who would run it... It's basically the same as Ururam's just a little more fleshed out.
Call it the World Championship Qualifier Tournament.
Make it floating elimination or Swiss or whatever. Either way, everybody signs up and promises to pay between 10 and 15 dollars as an entry fee. Then you take the number of people who signed up and work out how many players' entry fees for the championship proper will come out of the money.
So let's say you have 17 applicants. Everybody pays $12 making for a pot of $204, which means the top 2 at the end of the tournament will have their entry fees paid for them at the World Championship. (The organizer gets to keep the $4  )
There are other ways to lighten the load, Omar. Please reconsider.
I'm a very busy person myself too and that's why right from the beginning the World League's rescheduling system is specifically designed to make sure I don't have to be on call all weekend.
If one the players can't make it for the time the scheduler sets for them, he has to ask his opponent for an alternate time (and his opponent has the right to say no). Up until now the opponents have always obliged.
Then it's the players' responsibility to announce beforehand what time they've agreed upon, and then to prove they're present when the time comes, and then to state in the chatroom before they start that they accept the game as official. It's as airtight as I can make it, and even when players aren't clued in enough to do everything they're supposed to they leave enough of a paper trail to rule out any disputes.
Plus I can come back whenever I want between Monday and Wednesday to check up on what happened.
I know this might sound a little strange coming from a person who's almost definitely not going to be taking part in the WC, but I do have a stake in this community, and seeing as the WC is one of the fundamental pillars of the community I've got a really bad feeling about this new format. I'd hate for it to be a disaster. So from one tourney organizer to another, here's my 2 cents.
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ocmiente
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #78 on: Oct 28th, 2011, 2:20pm » |
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on Oct 28th, 2011, 1:46pm, megajester wrote:| A World Championship Tournament between 4 players consisting of 3 games just doesn't sound right. |
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Omar declared a 'floating triple elimination tournament', so that would be 9 games (or more) with 4 players. Trying the best 3/5 would not add many games, if any.
on Oct 28th, 2011, 1:46pm, megajester wrote:A World Championship Tournament between 4 players consisting of 3 games just doesn't sound right.
OK here's my idea, although I'm not sure who would run it... It's basically the same as Ururam's just a little more fleshed out.
Call it the World Championship Qualifier Tournament. |
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That sounds really great to me. Who would run it is the big question. Would it be in lieu of having another World League event?
Regarding the cost, I don't want to give the impression that I'm trying to keep the organizer from realizing a $4 gain, but on the other hand, I suspect that whoever does it isn't going to do it for the wealth the position will bring.
How about if all of the money goes into the WC prize fund? $100 is for the winner's entry fees, whatever is left over is for the 2nd place winner's entry fees, and if there is more left than the 3rd place winner gets that that amount deducted from his entry fee. If someone who wins decides not to participate in the WC (or decides that they would rather let the next winner in line get the money), then the money would go to the next person down the line, etc. If very few people sign up, then the winner would have whatever amount was in the pool deducted from his WC entry fee.
I think it's a great idea, and would be an interesting event to fill the time between now and the WC.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 28th, 2011, 8:01pm by ocmiente » |
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mistre
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #79 on: Oct 30th, 2011, 12:24am » |
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on Oct 25th, 2011, 7:00pm, omar wrote:| But this year I would like to run the WC tournament the way I want. So here is how it will work. I am giving away $200 USD to the best human Arimaa player. Anyone can come and claim it by registering to play in the WC tournament. The registration fee is $100 and it will be added to the WC prize fund. If no one else wants to challenge you then you will be crowned the champion and walk away with $300 without having played a single game. |
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What if the best players don't want to pay a $100 registration fee? You could have a situation where the best player doesn't win because he decided to not even enter. What's worse, you could give $200 to someone that doesn't even play a game. To me that is a far worse scenario then having too many sign up.
If it was up to me, I would keep it similar to what has been done in the past except the open classic would only be for the lower rated players and would be run by the Arimaa Community (with the top players earning byes to the finals). That way the lower ranked players get more games and the top ranked players can have their short tournament.
As for the registration fee - I favor something like $20 to keep it affordable. I won't be able to play if it is much higher than that.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 30th, 2011, 12:27am by mistre » |
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megajester
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Istanbul, Turkey
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #80 on: Oct 30th, 2011, 7:15am » |
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on Oct 28th, 2011, 2:20pm, ocmiente wrote:
Would it be in lieu of having another World League event? |
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What is the answer to this question?
In the AWL survey I've had roughly 5 players for each club promise they should be available for at least one of the rounds, with 3 more undecided as to which club they want to play for. So if we want another season this year, we can do it, but we need to be sure it won't clash with any WC preliminaries.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #81 on: Oct 30th, 2011, 10:12am » |
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The tradition of satellite tournaments for people who can't afford the main tournament is well-established in the poker world from people who want to play in the World Series of Poker but can't afford the $10,000 buy-in. Officially there were 6,865 participants in the WSOP main event this year, but in reality there were many more who played in satellite tournaments and didn't qualify.
I have to say that I don't quite get the logic. If $10,000 for a WSOP seat is too expensive, then $500 for a 1/20 chance of a WSOP seat is also too expensive. It's the same price either way, the same average payout per buy-in. The only difference is if you think the satellite tournament itself is worth playing. So then it isn't really about the average prize per price of entry, it is about the tournament experience. One pays to play for the reflected excitement of the WSOP. If you bust out of a WSOP satellite, it sort of feels like having busted out of the WSOP main event. You were there for the challenge, you participated in the action, and you just didn't lose as much as those who lost in the main event.
Megajester, for the good of the community, please don't cancel an event with a high probability of success for fear of conflicting with an event that has a high probability of not happening or fizzling if it does. The main point of a World Championship satellite is to let everyone play, but the AWL already lets everyone play, so the social role is already mostly being filled. The only leftover issue is that the World Championship is more glorious, and people want a piece of the glory, but the fact of the matter is that Omar has put a $100 price on that. If we chip in $10 each, it still costs $100 to play.
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chessandgo
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Arimaa player #1889
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #82 on: Oct 30th, 2011, 10:47am » |
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on Oct 30th, 2011, 10:12am, Fritzlein wrote:| If we chip in $10 each, it still costs $100 to play. |
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QFT as you folks say. Btw Joel, looking at recent forum posts, everyone sports an AWL badge, besides yourself who made them... That's hardly fair. How about: (ok, I need to work on my paint skills)
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| « Last Edit: Oct 30th, 2011, 11:17am by chessandgo » |
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megajester
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Istanbul, Turkey
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #83 on: Oct 30th, 2011, 3:54pm » |
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Ohhh thanks! But I've only got 4 characters left in my signature...
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ginrunner
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #84 on: Oct 30th, 2011, 4:19pm » |
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on Oct 30th, 2011, 3:54pm, megajester wrote:| Ohhh thanks! But I've only got 4 characters left in my signature... |
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Thats why you get rid of the "Click for:" ... problem solved
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megajester
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #85 on: Oct 30th, 2011, 4:59pm » |
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I need an extra 33 characters to add this:
[ img ] http://tinyurl.com/6g8w64n [ / img ]
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chessandgo
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Arimaa player #1889
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #86 on: Oct 30th, 2011, 7:12pm » |
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Ah, I never used the signature before, didn't know about the character limitation. Well, we all know who you are anyway 
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omar
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #88 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 1:12pm » |
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on Oct 26th, 2011, 1:32pm, Adanac wrote:
A couple of questions:
Let’s suppose the champion goes 5-2 with 1 bye while the 2nd place finisher is 5-3. Would they receive the same prize money, based upon an equal number of wins, or is there a bonus for 1st place?
Will there be a spectator’s contest?
Are you going to participate Omar, since you are paying double the required entry fee?
Isn’t the lack of a refund and the desire to keep one’s participation a secret going to mean that everyone will join on the final day? That’s the opposite of last year where there were incentives to register early.
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Yes, they would receive the same prize money. It is based on number of games won.
Yes, there will be a spectator contest.
No, I won't be in the WC this year. I clearly don't have a chance against the top players. No need for me to get in the way and slow down the tournament. Although it is tempting since it means high quality commented games against strong opponents.
I changed my mind about the refund and initial ranking based on registration fee. More about that later.
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omar
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #89 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 3:57pm » |
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When I tried to implement the system for initial ranking based on registration fee, it opened up some issues I couldn't decide on. Should players be allowed to see how much others have given in registration fees? How many times can they add to the registration fee? Can they retract some amount above the required registration fee if they change their mind and want to lower their ranking? Hummm, I don't know. So for now I decided to drop this. My initial thoughts on this was that if someone thought that the initial ranking would help them get more wins then let them decide how much they want to pay for that. But maybe it's not worth it for the additional issues it opens up.
To counter the incentive to register late, the registration fee will start at $80 and increase by $1 per day. But since this could hurt someone who legitimately does not know if they can play or not until much later, I dropped the no refund rule. I suppose someone could abuse this by signing up to make the prize fund seem bigger and then pulling out at the end. So I was considering something like a decreasing refund if you pull out the last week before the deadline, but decided it's not worth doing this right now.
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