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Topic: 2012 World Championship format (Read 15771 times) |
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omar
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #90 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 4:11pm » |
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on Oct 26th, 2011, 3:23pm, Fritzlein wrote:
And will there be prize allocation again this year? And will there be a fee for the Postal Mixer?
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There won't be allocation of prizes this year for 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The prize funds will also be separate due to integrating them with the tournament management tool. But it will be possible to add to the prize funds.
For the postal mixer, I'm thinking of requiring a deposit. It is much easier to do this now with the point system in place.
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omar
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #91 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 5:58pm » |
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on Oct 27th, 2011, 6:00am, chessandgo wrote:Omar, do you intend players to focus on the WC title or on money in this tournament? The rules seem to have a lot of emphasis on money.
It reminds me of what poker players call High Rollers tournaments: high buy-in, small (and usually strong) fields, some focus on glory, most focus on money. Would you consider making this tournament a "High Roller Arimaa Tournament", and having the WC 2012 have similar rules to the previous ones?
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This is all due to me not wanting the WC tournament to have too many players because the number of games was getting too much for my schedule. Since many people didn't like the idea of limiting the number of players based on rating, I figured a high entry fee would be a good alternative solution. It might work, it might flop. I don't know, this is the first time we are trying it. But trying different things is the only way we will find out. Even if it doesn't work, it's not the end of Arimaa; we can always try something else next year. Like I said earlier, if the community wants to organize the WC next year, that would be great.
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I don't understand the bolded part. I don't think someone registering in a WC is thus claiming to be better than the current champ.
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I was just trash talking. Don't take it seriously.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 31st, 2011, 9:01pm by omar » |
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omar
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #92 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 6:12pm » |
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on Oct 27th, 2011, 10:03am, Dolus wrote:
If I can learn what's involved in running a tournament and how to do it, I think I'd be interested in making time to host a beginner tournament among the Arimaa community (and of course inviting outsiders to join). Clearly, I don't know the level of commitment involved, but I would like to figure out what would be involved/required, and see if I could feasibly put something together. |
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We have a tournament management tool that helps with pairing and scheduling the games. It's takes a little getting used to, but it works. Send me a message through the Contact page and I can try to help you with this. Thanks for offering to run a beginners tournament.
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omar
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #93 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 6:40pm » |
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on Oct 30th, 2011, 12:24am, mistre wrote:
What if the best players don't want to pay a $100 registration fee? You could have a situation where the best player doesn't win because he decided to not even enter. What's worse, you could give $200 to someone that doesn't even play a game. To me that is a far worse scenario then having too many sign up.
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It's possible, but I don't think it's highly probable. The best player would get back more than the $100 they put up.
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If it was up to me, I would keep it similar to what has been done in the past except the open classic would only be for the lower rated players and would be run by the Arimaa Community (with the top players earning byes to the finals). That way the lower ranked players get more games and the top ranked players can have their short tournament.
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This is similar to what I had proposed originally. It would require limiting the number of players in the top ranked players tournament based on ratings.
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As for the registration fee - I favor something like $20 to keep it affordable. I won't be able to play if it is much higher than that.
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Yes, a lot of people can afford to lose $20, but they will think twice if they might lose $100. However, if they knew that they had a high chance of getting back more than the $100 they put up a lot of people would enter. For example if the initial prize fund was say $2000.
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omar
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #94 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 10:17pm » |
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I want to thank everybody that has contributed to this discussion. I really appreciate the feedback and it has helped me tweak my initial proposal to something which I think is much better. In the end I have to pull the trigger and finalize on something. Although the community would like a WC with a large number of participants, I am sorry I am personally trying to avoid that. Last year I was a bit naive and was also trying to get as many people as possible to join the WC. After it started I realized this was getting too much for me to handle. But maybe what is happening is a good thing. Perhaps it's a good sign that the WC is getting too big for me to handle and that I would like the community to organize it in the future. Maybe this is part of Arimaa's natural growth and was destined to happen. We'll see. But if it doesn't happen I'll still try to do the best I can to keep the WC going.
I know you all want the best for Arimaa and so do I; we definitely share that goal in common. We may differ on how to go about things. But in the end, regardless of our difference, when show time comes, we have to put our differences aside, unite and try to make this years event better than any of the previous ones. It may seem that we are doomed for failure because less people will be playing in the WC, but it all depends on how you measure success. I like to measure success by how many people are watching the games. So I would like to break our previous records of simultaneous logins and listeners. Everyone can help with achieving this goal by inviting their friends and family to watch the games with commentary.
I spent a lot of time last week and this past weekend trying to get things finished up so we can start the registrations in November. Finally here are the links to the event pages:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/wc/2012/
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/wcc/2012/
Still have to do the Postal Mixer.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #95 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 10:48pm » |
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on Oct 31st, 2011, 3:57pm, omar wrote:| To counter the incentive to register late, the registration fee will start at $80 and increase by $1 per day. |
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The current instructions are pretty confusing on this point. In one place it still says $100 is required. Nowhere does it say on what day the registration will be $80, or how much it will be on January 1, the final day to register. Is the clock ticking as of November 1, with a $141 registration fee by the end?
I hope you are satisfied with this rule and willing to stick with it, because it will be very difficult to change later without being unfair. If it comes near the deadline and only two people are registered and nobody else is signing up because it costs $140, there might be a temptation to change the rules or make exceptions, but that would do more damage to the Arimaa World Championship than having a squirrely rule in the first place.
on Oct 31st, 2011, 3:57pm, omar wrote:| I dropped the no refund rule. I suppose someone could abuse this by signing up to make the prize fund seem bigger and then pulling out at the end. So I was considering something like a decreasing refund if you pull out the last week before the deadline, but decided it's not worth doing this right now. |
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I might be missing something here, but it seems that allowing full refunds until the last minute will negate any benefit of persuading people to sign up early. Under the present rules I should certainly sign up to play on the first day of registration so as to get the lowest price. So might anyone else who thinks they have any chance of wanting to play. Why not sign up now? I can make my true decision later, indeed right up to January 1, and if I bail out, I haven't lost anything. So you will have my signup but it won't be real. It won't mean anything other than that I am thinking about playing. If others follow the same logic process, we could have fifteen signups in early November, and three people actually playing come January.
Maybe the point is that people who sign up early will feel they have made a promise to play that they should only break in an emergency? Would you feel upset if someone signed up without feeling any commitment and later asked for a refund on a whim? That might be what you have referred to as "abuse", but it also seems like what you are creating an incentive to do.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 31st, 2011, 11:11pm by Fritzlein » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #96 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 10:55pm » |
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on Oct 31st, 2011, 4:11pm, omar wrote:| For the postal mixer, I'm thinking of requiring a deposit. It is much easier to do this now with the point system in place. |
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Yes, with the point system it might even be feasible to go back to prize payouts based on score. If I recall correctly, the original reason to abandon prizes based on score was that paying out prizes was too fussy, not that there was anything wrong with the incentives or with the way the tournament turned out. There is also something to be said for having the Postal Mixer money separate from the money for the other events, since the Postal Mixer starts so much later, and some people will want to register for it after the other events have finished.
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mistre
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #97 on: Nov 1st, 2011, 9:31am » |
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on Oct 31st, 2011, 6:40pm, omar wrote:
Yes, a lot of people can afford to lose $20, but they will think twice if they might lose $100. However, if they knew that they had a high chance of getting back more than the $100 they put up a lot of people would enter. For example if the initial prize fund was say $2000.
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If the initial prize fund was $2000, then I would seriously consider putting in $100 because I would have a realistic chance to make back my money.
I would imagine it is the same with most others, the reward has to worth the amount of risk put in. As it is now, only Chessandgo and Fritzlein, and maybe a few others could feel pretty good about risking $100 with the potential to earn more.
Most any other player is surely going to be throwing their $100 away unless they see a bunch of other people around their ranking signing up. However, with the refund rule as it is, they could just pull out at a later date and there could be a mass exodus for refunds at the last minute (as Fritz also pointed out).
Why was limiting the WC to only the top ranked players using WHR discarded as an idea? I think it is a far better solution then a high registration fee.
Oh well, I will support your decision and will still be interested in the games that do take place (however few they are).
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omar
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #98 on: Nov 1st, 2011, 6:58pm » |
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on Oct 31st, 2011, 10:48pm, Fritzlein wrote:
The current instructions are pretty confusing on this point. In one place it still says $100 is required.
Nowhere does it say on what day the registration will be $80, or how much it will be on January 1, the final day to register. Is the clock ticking as of November 1, with a $141 registration fee by the end?
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Thanks. I fixed that. Registration starts Nov 7th and ends Jan 1st. By the end the fee would be $135.
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I hope you are satisfied with this rule and willing to stick with it, because it will be very difficult to change later without being unfair. If it comes near the deadline and only two people are registered and nobody else is signing up because it costs $140, there might be a temptation to change the rules or make exceptions, but that would do more damage to the Arimaa World Championship than having a squirrely rule in the first place.
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Yes, we will have to stick with it; no exceptions.
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I might be missing something here, but it seems that allowing full refunds until the last minute will negate any benefit of persuading people to sign up early. Under the present rules I should certainly sign up to play on the first day of registration so as to get the lowest price. So might anyone else who thinks they have any chance of wanting to play. Why not sign up now? I can make my true decision later, indeed right up to January 1, and if I bail out, I haven't lost anything. So you will have my signup but it won't be real. It won't mean anything other than that I am thinking about playing. If others follow the same logic process, we could have fifteen signups in early November, and three people actually playing come January.
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Since I have integrated the point system with the tournament management tool (TMT) one has to have the points in their account to sign up. My guess is that someone who goes through the effort to transfer the money and sign up is probably serious about playing and if they withdraw later it's because they wouldn't be able to play or felt the competition was too strong. But there could be a chain effect of people bailing out right before the deadline. Should be be a small penalty for withdrawal?
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Maybe the point is that people who sign up early will feel they have made a promise to play that they should only break in an emergency? Would you feel upset if someone signed up without feeling any commitment and later asked for a refund on a whim? That might be what you have referred to as "abuse", but it also seems like what you are creating an incentive to do. |
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I'm hoping people won't do this. If they do, then a small penalty for withdrawing would be required to counter it.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #99 on: Nov 1st, 2011, 8:12pm » |
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on Nov 1st, 2011, 6:58pm, omar wrote:| I'm hoping people won't do this. If they do, then a small penalty for withdrawing would be required to counter it. |
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I think a $10 penalty would be reasonable. In past years many people have made their decision to play or not play based on who else was signing up. Even when little money was involved there was a question of whether it would be fun to get crushed, so some people didn't sign up until after they saw people of similar rating had joined. This year the effect will be magnified because the un-fun of getting crushed could be compounded by the un-fun of losing money. It would be distressing to sign up based on other signups who later pulled out.
I will sign up on the first day so as to get the $80 price. I fully intend to play, but if my circumstances change unexpectedly, I will be happy if I can get even $70 of my entry fee back.
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omar
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #100 on: Nov 2nd, 2011, 1:14pm » |
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on Nov 1st, 2011, 8:12pm, Fritzlein wrote:
I think a $10 penalty would be reasonable. In past years many people have made their decision to play or not play based on who else was signing up. Even when little money was involved there was a question of whether it would be fun to get crushed, so some people didn't sign up until after they saw people of similar rating had joined. This year the effect will be magnified because the un-fun of getting crushed could be compounded by the un-fun of losing money. It would be distressing to sign up based on other signups who later pulled out.
I will sign up on the first day so as to get the $80 price. I fully intend to play, but if my circumstances change unexpectedly, I will be happy if I can get even $70 of my entry fee back. |
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OK, that makes sense. I added a penalty of $10 for unregistering. Lot less chance now that someone will register without a real intent to play.
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Adanac
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #101 on: Nov 2nd, 2011, 3:04pm » |
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Most people probably read instructions more carefully than I do but, just in case, maybe there should be a warning above a certain threshold for transferring money from PayPal into Arimaa Points.
I decided to add an extra 4000 points in my account ($40) to get ready for Monday’s World Championship registration date. So I clicked on the Add Points link and then typed in 4000, failing to notice that it was asking how many US Dollars I wanted. So PayPal thought I wanted to transfer $4000 to arimaa.com (I still hadn’t clued in, though)!  The problem is that my credit card expires within the next 6 months and it doesn’t allow transfers that large if your credit card is too close to the expiry date. But I got around that by choosing to transfer the money directly from my bank account. Luckily I noticed how much money it was asking for just before I pressed OK. Happy ending: I was able to transfer $40 from PayPal despite my credit card expiration date. 
So the lesson is always read instructions carefully when you’re transferring money. And maybe there should be some sort of confirmation required or bright red text box warning before someone tries to transfer more than $250 worth of Arimaa points. If someone is requesting huge amounts, the chances are that they made the same mistake that I did.
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megajester
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #102 on: Nov 8th, 2011, 2:56pm » |
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on Oct 30th, 2011, 10:47am, chessandgo wrote:
QFT as you folks say. Btw Joel, looking at recent forum posts, everyone sports an AWL badge, besides yourself who made them... That's hardly fair. How about: (ok, I need to work on my paint skills)
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It fit!
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chessandgo
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #103 on: Nov 8th, 2011, 5:19pm » |
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You'd be covered for a century of WCs Greg :p And Joel: cool! If you wish to redesign the thing I won't take it as an offense to my aestethic sense (for I don't have any)
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omar
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Re: 2012 World Championship format
« Reply #104 on: Nov 10th, 2011, 7:51pm » |
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on Nov 2nd, 2011, 3:04pm, Adanac wrote:
So the lesson is always read instructions carefully when you’re transferring money. And maybe there should be some sort of confirmation required or bright red text box warning before someone tries to transfer more than $250 worth of Arimaa points. If someone is requesting huge amounts, the chances are that they made the same mistake that I did.
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Wow, that was close. I've added a warning now. Thanks for the suggestion.
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