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   Author  Topic: TheMob vs TheGang  (Read 26294 times)
Nazgand
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TheMob vs TheGang
« on: Jun 8th, 2011, 9:09am »
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Look Here for the current game(s).
 
Here are the PB wikis for both sides.
Mob discussion
Gang discussion
Click the one you are joining, and click the 'Request Access' button on the right side. Enter your email address, and in the 'Optional Message' textbox put your forum name, so that the coordinator could check validity and ask the other coordinator if they are already on the other team.
 
Edit (by Admin): Here is the link to watch the game.
 
Team member lists here(not guaranteed to be accurate):
gang
mob
« Last Edit: Aug 4th, 2011, 5:55pm by Nazgand » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #1 on: Jun 8th, 2011, 1:51pm »
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I would be happy to participate, but being team coordinator is extra work that I'm not volunteering to do.  If RonWeasley would be willing to coordinate for the USA team that would be fabulous, but we would still need a coordinator for the rest of the world (ROW) team.  It doesn't have to be the top player, but one of the judgment calls the coordinator has to make is which moves need extended discussion and which moves are suitable for a snap vote with minimal discussion, which should probably be decided by someone ~2000 WHR.
 
I note that megajester's Arimaa World League poll was not about postal games at all, only about relative preference for live head-to-head games vs. live collaborative games.  AWL is for live play.  Also AWL has four teams, and given how many people are required for a decent Mob (see below) there can only be two teams.  Therefore this is the only poll in town for folks interested in another postal Mob game.
 
My opinion is that the time control (one week per move) was perfect, and that Condorcet voting worked fine, and that use of computers to assist analysis made the games more fun and interesting.  In fact the only thing that "went wrong" is that The One got beat up both games and didn't feel like playing any more.  So the major topic of debate as far as I am concerned is whether there is enough interest to fix that with two competing teams.
 
The size of the team is important.  The discussion was getting a bit thin towards the end of the second Mob game, which put some strain on the remaining active participants.  Both Mob games saw people join in after the game started, but more drifted away than came late, so overall participation waned.  To have a good shot at a full, fun game, I think we need about fifteen voters per team at the start, i.e. about thirty total.  Maybe if we get twenty declared participants in this thread, we can get the rest by advertising the game as it is about to begin.  Anything less than twenty responses in thread, and I would prefer to wait until the Arimaa community has grown a bit more.
 
So far the declared interest stands at two: Nazgand and Fritzlein.  Smiley
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2011, 1:54pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

UruramTururam
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #2 on: Jun 8th, 2011, 2:17pm »
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I can play in the Gang but I'm too weak for its coordinator.
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Nazgand
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #3 on: Jun 8th, 2011, 6:05pm »
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I agree that 20 would be a good number to start with. Now all that's left to do is point people to this thread and collect volunteers.
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Swynndla
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #4 on: Jun 8th, 2011, 7:20pm »
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I don't know how these are run ...  
  • If it's one move per week with votes for the next move, is there any collaborative analysis?
  • ... and if so, is this analysis private or public?
  • ... and is the analysis on a site or over email?
  • If someone is busy for a week, they don't have to vote every week right?
  • If a team has strong players but quite a few week players which might mean that a weaker move gets more votes (ie an obvious one so it gets lots of votes but it turns out to be a weak one), then does the move get played or does the coordinator overrule the vote?

 
So this format has happened before (ie when The One got beat up both times), but as an aside question, has live collaborative games (that megajester was polling) happened before? (ie with one team on one teamspeak channel and the other team on another teamspeak one?)
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Nazgand
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #5 on: Jun 8th, 2011, 9:18pm »
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The analysis is public on the Arimaa forums eg. http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=2007onevsmob
Moves are suggested and refuted until they are happy with their moves or need to move. Then they vote. I believe the best part of collaboration is refuting moves rather than suggesting or voting; if you refute all the bad moves, then the moves left are chosen as a matter of taste.
If people are busy for a week, yes, they could take time off.
Even if a group has many weak voters, it should be fine, because the weakly suggested moves would be refuted before they become a candidate. They may not vote for the best move in the candidates, but all of the candidates would have no weaknesses noticed by bots, analysis tools, or the stronger players on the team.
I hope this clears up all your questions.
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Fritzlein
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #6 on: Jun 8th, 2011, 10:07pm »
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on Jun 8th, 2011, 7:20pm, Swynndla wrote:
If a team has strong players but quite a few week players which might mean that a weaker move gets more votes (ie an obvious one so it gets lots of votes but it turns out to be a weak one), then does the move get played or does the coordinator overrule the vote?

This was the central question when we started the experiment.  With simple majority voting, would the Mob be stronger or weaker than its strongest player?  (The coordinator gets to vote, and gets to call the timing of the vote, but does not get to overrule the majority.)  It is impossible to tell a priori whether this will produce strong play, but the experience from both Mob games is that the Mob produced clearly stronger moves than the strongest Mob member alone would have done.  As Nazgand explains, the magic is in the discussion, not in the voting.
 
Quote:
as an aside question, has live collaborative games (that megajester was polling) happened before? (ie with one team on one teamspeak channel and the other team on another teamspeak one?)

Yes I think it happened once during the Arimaa Festival with small teams.  I didn't participate.  My experience from chess, however, is that discussion time is too short, so that the group can't be stronger than its strongest member, and indeed if it functions truly as a group with voting, then it will be weaker than its strongest member.  Again, the magic is in the discussion, not the vote, and two minutes per move is very short for meaningful discussion.
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Janzert
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #7 on: Jun 8th, 2011, 11:37pm »
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on Jun 8th, 2011, 7:20pm, Swynndla wrote:
as an aside question, has live collaborative games (that megajester was polling) happened before? (ie with one team on one teamspeak channel and the other team on another teamspeak one?)

 
Yes, there were 2 such games during the Arimaa festival last fall. One played at a time convenient for European players and the other better timed for North American players (found here and here).
 
They were played at 90s per move controls and because of the need to fit into the festival schedule a short total game length. Because of that both games ended with the game limit and were determined by score.
 
Through mechanisms unknown to me* I ended up as captain for one of the teams in the American game. There were 3 players on each team for that game. Basically I found at 90 seconds there was really just barely time for the team to get only one or two move ideas on the table and somewhat vetted that it wasn't a blunder by the other players. At the same time though my team with players ranked around 1900, 1700 and 1400 did manage to get up by a camel against the other team with players at roughly 2100, 2000 and 1200. So we either got lucky or did manage to outperform the expected outcome from just looking at the top rating on each team. Mostly I think the teams at that time control still manage to avoid some of the blunders that any single player would have made on their own. Also if you look at the average time per move none of the teams managed to stay within the 90s per move.
 
So my take away was that 90s per move is the absolute minimum for a collaborative game to have a chance and it doesn't feel like you have time for any real discussion during the game. But increasing the time control is probably going to make it difficult to get a whole team of people able to stay around for the entire game. Maybe allowing people to rotate in and out of a team, as they are available, would work? Also even with this minimum of collaboration it still probably resulted in play better than the best player on the team.
 
Janzert
 
* Literally; I actually had no plans to even participate in the game until I saw my name listed as a captain a short time before the event. Smiley
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Nazgand
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #8 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 12:01am »
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So... Swynndla, Janzert... are either of you interested in participating?
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Swynndla
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #9 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 12:40am »
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Thanks all for clearing up my questions.  I'm convinced - count me in! (although some weeks I may not be able to contribute).
 
Edit: oh and I was wondering, is it ok to view the other team's analysis, or is this considered bad manners?
« Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2011, 12:42am by Swynndla » IP Logged
Nazgand
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #10 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 1:35am »
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In TheOne vs TheMob, neither side was allowed to view the other's analysis. It is conceivable that we could play that way, but I suspect most people would rather not until the game is over; they may wish to relish the surprises.
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Fritzlein
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #11 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 1:54am »
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on Jun 9th, 2011, 12:40am, Swynndla wrote:
Edit: oh and I was wondering, is it ok to view the other team's analysis, or is this considered bad manners?

As The One I never looked at the discussion of The Mob.  I was supposing that with two Mobs it would be against the rules, although entirely unenforceable, for either team to look at the discussion of the other.  Just to make the temptation slightly less, I would suggest each team suspend discussion as soon as it votes, rather than trying to get a jump on the next move's discussion.  That way at least cheaters would be seeing one ply less depth.
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ginrunner
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #12 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 3:05am »
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im in if this happens
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Nazgand
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #13 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 3:16am »
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on Jun 9th, 2011, 3:05am, ginrunner wrote:
im in if this happens

Welcome aboard, sir!
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mistre
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #14 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 8:07am »
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Nazgand,
 
There was a thread in the AWL World League where we were discussing postal matches and there were a few others who expressed interest in a Mob vs Gang format.  
 
Right now the postal mixer is in full swing so some of us are busy with that.  As for me, I am in.  An August 1st start date would be good for me.
« Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2011, 8:19am by mistre » IP Logged

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