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Topic: TheMob vs TheGang (Read 41444 times) |
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megajester
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #60 on: Jun 15th, 2011, 2:27am » |
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So we're all agreed that a "gentleman's agreement" is basically a rule that's begging to be broken?
I don't like the idea of a "who cares, let 'em cheat" approach any more than I'm happy about diving in football. You can't stop it, and so any footballer who refuses to do it is at a disadvantage. But it leaves a bad taste in the mouth, because winning becomes as much about skill at cheating as skill at the game that everybody actually signed up for.
If we've come to that, why not just have "The Mob vs. Itself" in one thread where everybody discusses each move together? Much less tedious than flicking between two threads...
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| « Last Edit: Jun 15th, 2011, 2:42am by megajester » |
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ginrunner
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #61 on: Jun 15th, 2011, 3:12am » |
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Sorry I have not read the whole thread so what I am about to say may have already been said and discredited.
Make 2 sections in the forum (the mob and the gang) each with an application thread that is viewable by all and a single moderator that has the ability to allow people to view every thread in the section. potential members apply and are added to the list of people that can view the whole section.
this should be very easy on the forum side, it completely prevents cheating unless the team leader/moderator is stupid and lets someone that is on the other team view, and the captains know exactly who is on their team.
the downside would be spectators not on a team are not able to view the move list and so the solution becomes making the thread viewable after a certain number of moves (sort of like the delay during the world championships). give the team captains/moderators the ability to control when a thread is viewable just incase a move tree has been posted and they dont want a thread viewed even after a certain number of moves. now we can have spectators that can read and learn why certain moves were made, cheating is impossible, and if you would like there can still be an honor code of not reading the other team's threads until the match is over.
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chessandgo
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #62 on: Jun 15th, 2011, 6:46am » |
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We've got to compare the cumulative unhappiness which would be generated by the extra cheating that could occur if we don't work to prevent it with the cumulative happiness that we would all gain by having more time to dedicate to whatever we want (by deciding not to work towards preventing any cheating). Personally, it's very easy, as someone cheating basically wouldn't make me unhappy, while the extra time would not be wasted on my postal games. I suspect that collectively we would also gain more with the extra free time.
In short I subscribe to what Swynndla says.
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chessandgo
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #63 on: Jun 15th, 2011, 6:46am » |
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on Jun 15th, 2011, 2:27am, megajester wrote:| If we've come to that, why not just have "The Mob vs. Itself" in one thread where everybody discusses each move together? Much less tedious than flicking between two threads... |
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Yellow card! 
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megajester
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #64 on: Jun 15th, 2011, 7:41am » |
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Erm... a system to prevent cheating actually seems quite easy:
on Jun 9th, 2011, 8:45am, rbarreira wrote:
What about some sort of password protected system where only the members of each team get the password?
I think pbwiki may do the trick. |
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So by your equation:
"cumulative unhappiness which would be generated by the extra cheating that could occur if we don't work to prevent it"
= a lot for some of us
"the cumulative happiness that we would all gain by having more time to dedicate to whatever we want (by deciding not to work towards preventing any cheating)"
= zero, because the amount of time/effort/etc needed is exactly the same either way
hmmm... tough decision! 
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chessandgo
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #65 on: Jun 15th, 2011, 7:44am » |
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Ah, if we have a solution without drawbacks, then sure, let's do it!
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Fritzlein
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #66 on: Jun 16th, 2011, 11:23pm » |
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on Jun 15th, 2011, 7:44am, chessandgo wrote:| Ah, if we have a solution without drawbacks, then sure, let's do it! |
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I'm afraid every solution will have drawbacks. I talked to Omar and he confirms that we can't use this version of YaBB for access control. This version has a concept of "member group", and of restricting categories based on member groups, but there is no way to assign group membership! Even the admin account can't say who is in what group. Apparently that feature got added later. Furthermore, our version is so far out of date that it would be a major pain to upgrade, and Omar is not willing to do that right now.
Therefore, if we are to do any access control at all, it will have at least one disadvantage, namely the disadvantage of being off-site. That means creating accounts somewhere else, with separate logins, and it means that the record of the discussion will be off-site as well.
Are there other disadvantages besides this? Could someone who is familiar with pbwiki break down exactly how it would work to hold the discussion over there?
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Nazgand
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #67 on: Jun 17th, 2011, 12:19am » |
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Any particular reason upgrading would be a pain? Would the game system become incompatible?
A simple on-site alternative to upgrading would be to add a value to the user table default 0, 1 for TheMob, 2 for TheGang. Then extend the existing JS client's planning abilities to allow submitting moves for others in the group to see, and refute, and possibly comment on. This may even be preferable to using the forums. Voting could even be incorporated into the JS client.
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Fritzlein
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #68 on: Jun 17th, 2011, 12:34am » |
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on Jun 17th, 2011, 12:19am, Nazgand wrote:| Any particular reason upgrading would be a pain? Would the game system become incompatible? |
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I don't know; I will let Omar answer that. His time is the bottleneck for many events, so the more we can do without him, the better. Manually updating the user table might work with the current software version, but even so Omar is the only one who could set it up at the start and add members to the teams as the game progresses, so it doesn't solve the fundamental problem of not being able to organize this game on our own.
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Nazgand
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #69 on: Jun 17th, 2011, 2:38am » |
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That could be solved by giving the Heads the ability to add/remove members.
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Fritzlein
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #70 on: Jun 17th, 2011, 1:16pm » |
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on Jun 17th, 2011, 2:38am, Nazgand wrote:| That could be solved by giving the Heads the ability to add/remove members. |
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And this either requires giving additional people admin access to the server, which I would be hesitant to do if I were in Omar's shoes, or it requires even more custom coding on Omar's part to make an add/remove function and an access-controlled interface for it, i.e. extra work from Omar up front to save himself work later. In fact, I see now that I misread your previous suggestion; I thought you were suggesting a hack to the forum but you were actually suggesting a hack to the client that enables client-based discussion. IHMO that would be a ridiculously large project. But there is no point in us arguing over over how easy or difficult this would be. There are some cases where public debate is irrelevant; this is a time for leadership.
Nazgand, you can contact Omar directly here: http://arimaa.com/arimaa/contact/ . You can explain to him exactly what he has to do to enable us to use this forum with access control, how his role in this will be really quite trivial, and how he needs to invest this small amount of time to enable the event you are agitating for. After you have persuaded him, we can get the game started.
Or, since you are convinced the changes to the client are easy, you can make those changes yourself. Omar will give you the client code to work with, and even set you up for testing on a test game room server. He is very eager to offload coding work, so he has gone to some lengths to enable code contributions. When you have implemented your client-based discussion solution, we can start the game.
Or you can help explore off-site forum alternatives such as pbwiki or other things you can think of, and as concretely as possible lay out the pros and cons of that solution compared to having discussions in this forum that everyone can view but agrees not to. More details about our alternatives would help the community come to a consensus on what is preferable.
I have my own opinions on how I think we should run the game, but I'm going to hold them in reserve in favor of this message with my opinions on the process that needs to take place, and the kind of leadership it will take to make the game happen.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 17th, 2011, 1:28pm by Fritzlein » |
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Hippo
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #71 on: Jun 17th, 2011, 1:59pm » |
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I am surprised there were not comments on my suggestion to have special accounts for mob player and gang player. Does it mean nobody thought about it or you consider it to be stupid and politely ignore it? ... Are there two leaders to be available for the whole game?
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Fritzlein
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #72 on: Jun 17th, 2011, 2:20pm » |
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on Jun 17th, 2011, 1:59pm, Hippo wrote:| I am surprised there were not comments on my suggestion to have special accounts for mob player and gang player. Does it mean nobody thought about it or you consider it to be stupid and politely ignore it? ... Are there two leaders to be available for the whole game? |
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I didn't comment because I thought it was a given. The accounts have to be created simply for the purpose of starting a game on the server, unless the game would be disguised as mistre vs. Hippo. For the first Mob game, when RonWeasley was away for a couple of moves, he gave the password to me so that I could make the moves until he got back. I don't know how it happened in the second Mob game, since I was The One. Did Ron never need a substitute over the year plus that the game lasted? Anyway, with two mobs, I would guess both would function this way.
Would the existence of these special accounts help us in some way about controlling access to the team discussions?
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| « Last Edit: Jun 17th, 2011, 2:21pm by Fritzlein » |
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Hippo
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #73 on: Jun 18th, 2011, 8:55am » |
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Oh so I was reinventing wheel. ... I remembered Ron to play for mob and he was actually only using mob accounnt for it. . ... I am not sure how much important is to distinguish moderator role from team memmber role in the discussion.
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Nazgand
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #74 on: Jun 18th, 2011, 3:05pm » |
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After looking at clojures's tool, I Think Fritzlein is correct that it would be the perfect tool; I especially like the ability to comment position and move.
After looking around, I found something about upgrading YaBB 1.x. Apparently, you need to upgrade to 2.3.1 before upgrading to anything higher. If upgrading fails, I think PBWiki would be an excellent place to post the exported analysis tree. It would be off site in that case, but I suppose we could release both sides' analysis trees afterward.
However, in the case of the wiki, I suspect having an account for both teams' wikis would be easy.
I'm in a mood to get things done. I made a TheGang account, challenged TheMob, gave it to Hippo. I also made PB wikis for both sides.Mob discussion
Gang discussion
Click the one you are joining, and click the 'Request Access' button on the right side. Enter your email address, and in the 'Optional Message' textbox put your forum name, so that the coordinator could check validity and ask the other coordinator if they are already on the other team.
mistre, ask Ron for the TheMob account. When the teams are ready, accept the challenge.
With USA vs ROW, USA has the advantage in numbers: 14 to 8. Should we do something else?
TheMob
1) ChrisB
2) Fritzlein
3) ginrunner
4) lightvector w/bot sharp
5) mdk
6) mistre
7) Nazgand
 Nombril
9) Ronweasley
10) Sconibulus
11) Swynndla
12) The_Jeh
13) novacat
14) FyzixST
15) Knak
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| « Last Edit: Jul 13th, 2012, 9:33am by Nazgand » |
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