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leo
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #15 on: Sep 10th, 2010, 8:03pm »
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Here's a list of links to server protocol and such:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=talk;action=display;nu m=1199089716;start=
(second post of the thread; warning: it's an old thread)
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #16 on: Sep 11th, 2010, 9:46pm »
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This is unusual of me, but I think I'll give you chance to try it out, even though it's not well tested yet http://bitbucket.org/egaga/arimaa-game-viewer/wiki/Home
 
Click 'get source' and after download & extraction, open arimaa.html with your favorite browser. All comments are welcome. See http://bitbucket.org/egaga/arimaa-game-viewer/wiki/doc_usermanual for instructions. You can shoot questions also here.
 
Some of functionality is missing, e.g. cannot be saved to file.
 
I've tested this with a couple of modern browsers, and I have two independent verification, too. Still, it would be nice to know if there is basic issues with navigation.
 
The code needs refactoring but is mostly separated into components so it won't be too big a problem. Only main.js is awful (but only superficially, easy to eliminate duplication and introduce abstractions).
 
Next, I'm going to add issues to the tracker and one by one eliminate them.
« Last Edit: Sep 11th, 2010, 9:49pm by clojure » IP Logged
rbarreira
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #17 on: Sep 12th, 2010, 7:57am »
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In Firefox (Linux) I couldn't see the game tree, but could move pieces around.
 
I'm using Chrome (Linux too) now, and it works better, the tree is displayed.
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #18 on: Sep 12th, 2010, 8:19am »
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on Sep 12th, 2010, 7:57am, rbarreira wrote:
In Firefox (Linux) I couldn't see the game tree, but could move pieces around.

 
Thanks for the report. I hadn't tried with Linux. It was easy to see that I had forgot to remove debugging console calls. Different browsers react differently on undefined objects.  
 
Now it worked for me at least with Namoroka (Mozilla Firefox for Ubuntu 3.6.4pre).
« Last Edit: Sep 12th, 2010, 8:20am by clojure » IP Logged
rbarreira
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #19 on: Sep 12th, 2010, 8:24am »
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That test was with Ubuntu 10.04, but I keep doing updates so the current Firefox version is 3.6.9.
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #20 on: Sep 12th, 2010, 8:41am »
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on Sep 12th, 2010, 8:24am, rbarreira wrote:
That test was with Ubuntu 10.04, but I keep doing updates so the current Firefox version is 3.6.9.

 
Hi, thanks. I forgot to say I updated the fix to the repository. Does it work now?
 
For those that want to repeatedly download, it's easiest to get Mercurial Hg (that's the version control system) client and just clone the repository. After that only "hg pull" and "hg update" commands are needed.
« Last Edit: Sep 12th, 2010, 8:10pm by clojure » IP Logged
rbarreira
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #21 on: Sep 12th, 2010, 9:38am »
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Yes, it is working now!
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Hippo
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #22 on: Sep 12th, 2010, 12:03pm »
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Yes, it works now. I was surprised how it choses last finished postal game of the viewer Smiley but it was hardcodded ... I would look at it more closely later.
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #23 on: Sep 12th, 2010, 12:44pm »
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on Sep 12th, 2010, 12:03pm, Hippo wrote:
Yes, it works now. I was surprised how it choses last finished postal game of the viewer Smiley

 
Haha! I forgot to change the game to some other one Wink Well, at least that game has lots of problematic moves by gold, so one can test how variations work!
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Fritzlein
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #24 on: Sep 13th, 2010, 12:44pm »
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on Sep 11th, 2010, 9:46pm, clojure wrote:
This is unusual of me, but I think I'll give you chance to try it out, even though it's not well tested yet

Thanks very much for offering this early preview.  I love what you have done so far.  Please don't take the comments below as criticism; it is just the feedback of an enthusiastic user who wants more.  Smiley
 
How do you enter a move of fewer than four steps?
 
If I can use the down arrow to move forward in the tree, I intuit that the up arrow should allow me to move backward in the tree.
 
Is there a way to delete a move (or branch) that I entered incorrectly?
 
I am not understanding why the color of the icon next to the last move in a variant is sometimes the color of the moving player and sometimes the color of the opponent, even when one has navigated away from that branch.  Everywhere else the color of the icon is the color of the moving player.
 
When I enter a comment and navigate to another move with the arrow keys, instead of navigating by clicking, my comment is not saved.
 
I love being able to expand and collapse the tree view.  An added feature which isn't logically a tree but useful in terms of viewing is the ability to roll up the sequence of moves following a branch.  For example, if the tree contains two alternative lines that don't themselves branch, it is convenient to be able to see only the two alternatives to the main move without seeing the full continuation of each.  So there are two levels of expanding the branch: first to see the moves that deviate, and second to see the continuation under one or the other or both if desired.  I know this isn't tree logic per se, but it is very convenient for navigation.
 
Why aren't moves in variations displayed by their notation just like moves in the main line?  Maybe I have entered three alternative moves, and I forget whether trying to blockade the elephant was [1], [2], or [3], so I have to open them each up in order to find the line I want, instead of being able to tell from the notation before clicking which line I wanted.
 
I will have to get used to the paradigm of comments applying only to positions and never to moves.  As a commentator, I often want to have it both ways, i.e. sometimes I want to talk about the position statically, and sometimes I want to say, "Silver's elephant charge is misguided."  At the moment I can only make the comment about the move as a comment about the position following the move.  I'm not sure how else this could be done, now that I think about it, but it wasn't intuitive to me at first.
 
Perhaps at least one could have special commentary on the quality of a move, adopted from chess, whereby one could choose from special symbols !, !!, ?, ??, !?, ?!, and the chosen symbol is displayed after the move notation.  Also there are special position evaluation symbols =, +=, =+, +-, -+, +/-, -/+.  Perhaps small icons with position evaluation could be put into the Gold and Silver arrows.
 
Perhaps the distinction between a position comment and a move comment could be enforced in notation in this way:  Comments after the steps and before the next move number apply to the position, whereas comments after the move number and before the steps apply to the move.  For example:
 
[+=] [Silver will lose material so racing is the only chance.] 37s [?!] [The rabbit should move to b3 instead to help trap control.] hc5s ra5s ra4s ra3s  
[+-] [Gold can make do with only one defensive step, and thus wins the race.] 38g [!][Forcing goal in three.] Cb1w Rg4n Rg5n Rg6n  
 
But maybe pulling move comments forward like this is an unnecessary complication, and there should be no logical distinction between a comment about a move and a comment about the position following that move.
 
Of course, before using the tool seriously I will need to be able to save and import games.  Another big feature request for somewhere down the line is the ability to re-order and promote variations.  Sometimes I would like a sub-variation to become the main line; other times the main line remains static, but I would like to present variations in a different order.
 
I know it is fun to think ahead to bot intergration, collaboration, etc., but there is so much to be done simply in getting a fully-functional off-line viewer that I strongly encourage you to keep that as the focus.  That in itself is a dauntingly massive project.
 
Let me just say again that what you are doing is very, very cool, and I am extremely eager to use the results.  Smiley
« Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2010, 12:58pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #25 on: Sep 13th, 2010, 1:13pm »
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I'll soon answer Fritzlein your questions but before that let me announce a Google Chrome extension.
 
Here's the contents needed: http://personal.inet.fi/koti/egaga/arimaa-chrome/arimaa-chrome.zip
 
If you haven't installed extensions to Chrome manually before, here's instructions.
 
First extract the contents from the zip.
 
The on the top right of Chrome there's that tool:

 
Under that you find extensions-text which you click. then you will see your extensions. There's a small button with which you can enlarge "developer's space" (don't know exact words since my client is in Finnish).
 
There you find "load extension". Navigate to where you extracted the zip and select chrome-extension (not sure if there will be two level directory structure after you extract, but you should select the directory that has directly under it the files).
 
After this, it should work.
 

 
There's that icon that is present when you are viewing a game in Arimaa.com. Click on it to open a new tab with the game (it doesn't update after clicking). You can have many games open in different tabs, though.
 
Enjoy:
 

 
I would appreciate if anyone can verify this to work. Smiley
« Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2010, 1:14pm by clojure » IP Logged
Hippo
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #26 on: Sep 13th, 2010, 1:38pm »
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OK I have tried it, but I cannot see a gold rabbit on the right top.
« Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2010, 1:48pm by Hippo » IP Logged

clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #27 on: Sep 13th, 2010, 1:56pm »
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Without yet reading all of your comments, let me first thank you for commenting and have a few general comments on the project.
 
First, only criticism that I would be offended by is dead silence. The most honorable comment is that addresses the current problems and gives suggestions. Even comments that only say "I don't kinda like that, it feels clumsy" are important. And by all kind of users, since this is meant for every player. Experts give of course more analyzed criticism but also newbies can have very good grasp what makes it usable.
 
What comes to the minor or major issues that either aren't there yet, or will not, is no worrying aspect. I publicized this project for the reason that enthusiastic like Fritzlein can affect the outcome early. Many of the issues mentioned I was expecting to be mentioned and this brings the question of how we share the current development status. I had already written most features to here: http://bitbucket.org/egaga/arimaa-game-viewer/wiki/doc_offline_viewer
 
Also for tasks there's repository here http://bitbucket.org/egaga/arimaa-game-viewer/issues?status=new&stat us=open
 
I would be glad if some of you signed to BitBucket and would comment those features / tasks directly there. Or if you think you have ideas, you could add issues. But overall discussion is also nice to have here.
 
Now let's dive into the current status.
 
on Sep 13th, 2010, 12:44pm, Fritzlein wrote:

How do you enter a move of fewer than four steps?

 
The functionality of passing is done in logic (you can view games that have less than 4) but the UI has no pass yet. My flow of selecting what features to do is chaotic Wink
 
Quote:

If I can use the down arrow to move forward in the tree, I intuit that the up arrow should allow me to move backward in the tree.

Nice to know. These kind of intuition mismatching features might scare people away. But later customization is possible.
 
Quote:

Is there a way to delete a move (or branch) that I entered incorrectly?

Tree updating by user is currently in now way supported. I was aware that it is an issue, and especially deleting is needed.
 
Quote:

I am not understanding why the color of the icon next to the last move in a variant is sometimes the color of the moving player and sometimes the color of the opponent, even when one has navigated away from that branch.  Everywhere else the color of the icon is the color of the moving player.

 
If you use keys, it should always update it correctly. There's an implementation issue that I haven't get to work out yet (I can't get the deselected value as event, AFAIK). But actually since when you go back to that last move of a variation, either by clicking or arrows, it will be shown correctly. It should matter in functional way. But I'll fix it.
 
Quote:

When I enter a comment and navigate to another move with the arrow keys, instead of navigating by clicking, my comment is not saved.

 
This is instructed in user manual (http://bitbucket.org/egaga/arimaa-game-viewer/wiki/doc_usermanual) but I actually underestimated the value of being to able save it otherwise. Nice catch.
 
Quote:

I love being able to expand and collapse the tree view.  An added feature which isn't logically a tree but useful in terms of viewing is the ability to roll up the sequence of moves following a branch.  For example, if the tree contains two alternative lines that don't themselves branch, it is convenient to be able to see only the two alternatives to the main move without seeing the full continuation of each.  So there are two levels of expanding the branch: first to see the moves that deviate, and second to see the continuation under one or the other or both if desired.  I know this isn't tree logic per se, but it is very convenient for navigation.

 
This is something I would like to have but will be a low priority issue since firstly I need to restructure the code before I complicate anything.
 
Quote:

Why aren't moves in variations displayed by their notation just like moves in the main line?

 
Forgot to mention that notation is what is, rubbish. Just couldn't yet bother to make it better.
 
It could be possible that user can add small prefix or postfix to a variation.
 
Quote:

I'm not sure how else this could be done, now that I think about it, but it wasn't intuitive to me at first.

 
Yeah, I didn't came up any better solution yet. One thing I must be wary of not complicating it too much. If there was moves distinguished from positions it could be a bit visually distressing.
 
Quote:

Perhaps at least one could have special commentary on the quality of a move, adopted from chess, whereby one could choose from special symbols !, !!, ?, ??, !?, ?!, and the chosen symbol is displayed after the move notation.  Also there are special position evaluation symbols =, +=, =+, +-, -+, +/-, -/+.  Perhaps small icons with position evaluation could be put into the Gold and Silver arrows.

 
Good idea in general. Hard to say what is a solid solution.
 
Quote:

Perhaps the distinction between a position comment and a move comment could be enforced in notation in this way:  Comments after the steps and before the next move number apply to the position, whereas comments after the move number and before the steps apply to the move.  

 
Can't say yet how I feel about this.
 
Quote:

Of course, before using the tool seriously I will need to be able to save and import games.

 
This shall be one of the next implemented features.
 
Quote:

Another big feature request for somewhere down the line is the ability to re-order and promote variations.  Sometimes I would like a sub-variation to become the main line; other times the main line remains static, but I would like to present variations in a different order.

 
Sure, I understand the need and it shouldn't be horrible thing to implement (though these kind of things usually bring up some corner case issues).
 
Quote:

I strongly encourage you to keep that as the focus.  That in itself is a dauntingly massive project.

 
Will do. Though since this is a hobby project, for refreshment I always play around with prototyping different things. It could be that suddenly I got ahaa moment and in a day there's some new cool feature.
 
Quote:

Let me just say again that what you are doing is very, very cool, and I am extremely eager to use the results.  Smiley

 
Without people that would love to use this, I wouldn't be here creating it. Part of the fun is social interaction and the feel that I have influence on how Arimaa is understood.
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #28 on: Sep 13th, 2010, 2:00pm »
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on Sep 13th, 2010, 1:38pm, Hippo wrote:
OK I have tried it, but I cannot see a gold rabbit on the right top.

 
Hmm. if it didn't complain when you loaded it, it should have at least parsed the manifest file properly, I think. This is pretty hard to debug without trying it oneself...
 
Just a question that is probably very unnecessary. You saw the information of extension in the extension listing? It's name, version number, etc [not sure about the exact names again]. Was there an active view "background.html")
 
And you did go to Arimaa.com's game (the rabbit is not shown anywhere else)? Sorry about stupid questions...
« Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2010, 2:01pm by clojure » IP Logged
Hippo
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #29 on: Sep 13th, 2010, 2:19pm »
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on Sep 13th, 2010, 2:00pm, clojure wrote:

 
Hmm. if it didn't complain when you loaded it, it should have at least parsed the manifest file properly, I think. This is pretty hard to debug without trying it oneself...
 
Just a question that is probably very unnecessary. You saw the information of extension in the extension listing? It's name, version number, etc [not sure about the exact names again]. Was there an active view "background.html")
 
And you did go to Arimaa.com's game (the rabbit is not shown anywhere else)? Sorry about stupid questions...

      
The Extensions tab shows:
Arimaa game viewer - Verze: 0.2 (Rozbaleno)
View Arimaa.com games
ID: ffooihhadkapcheeaeaefbdlegfhhngm
There is background.html. When I click it, I got somewhere I am not familiar with ... should I do there something?
 
And rabbits are shown only on the board ... and in the killed pieces region Smiley
« Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2010, 2:28pm by Hippo » IP Logged

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