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Topic: Move 2 (Read 9581 times) |
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aaaa
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Fritzlein plays:
Code:| 1s ee7 mg7 hd7 de8 cg8 hb7 dd8 cc7 ra7 rf7 rh7 ra8 rb8 rc8 rf8 rh8 |
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #2 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 12:53am » |
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on Dec 10th, 2008, 6:14pm, warren wrote:
I support E to e5 move.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #3 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 3:16am » |
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I think we need to decide right now on one or several plans for the next moves, before playing "commiting" moves like the above proposal. If our Elephant is likely to go to the western side to support a Horse advance for instance, then playing an Ee step will just lose two steps. So we must make very clear that we will bring our Elephant to the eastern side before playing such a step.
Here is how I evaluate such a position with the decentralized camel for silver:
- We want to advance a Horse on western side, be it for rabbit pulling or E+H (+M+R...) attack, as silver's camel will never threaten it.
- Silver wants his Elephant on western side. I possibly don't understand Karl's motivations for playing this strategy as I believe gold has a significant advantage here, but the only reason I can find to play it as silver is the following: silver wants to get some kind of "deadlock" on western side, tying both phants there, and then use his free camel on the other wing. This will be especially effective if we have our caMel on western side while not achieving much.
- In any case, if we advance our Horse towards a6/b5/b6, it will probably need Elephant support as silver's elephant will be there.
So with these ideas, playing an Ee step will just result in a two step loss for gold, while silver will not lose any step due to our Ee5 as he doesn't want his elephant on e-file but rather on d, c or b-file.
A completely different view (which I guess you both support, arimaa_master and warren) would be to bring our Elephant on eastern side to prevent silver's camel from moving, and possibly pull the h7 rabbit if we can.
I wholeheartedly support the first plan, as it makes the best use imo of silver's piece imbalance, and I'm not a big fan of the second plan, as even if we manage to pull a rabbit all the way to pinning it on f3, then silver's camel on g-file will become excellently placed, ready to mess with our pinning Hg3, and not fearing to be taken hostage on this wing as there is already the pinned rf3.
In any case, I think we absolutely need to agree on a plan right now, and play our first moves in consequence. The worst thing would be to play one or two moves first, and then decide on a plan which might be incompatible with our first moves, like deciding on E to e5 now and then on plan 1, or conversely playing some Ew and Hb2nn... on moves 2 and 3 and then going for plan 2.
If we don't like to decide on a plan right now, the "non-commiting" steps (those which will likely be useful for any plan we devise in the future) are Ennn, Hb2n, and possibly Hg3n. Possibly also De1n, and finally maybe (maybe maybe) Me2n.
I would root for the standard Ennn Hb2n, as it's non-commiting, and especially as it is the quicker way to go for an E+H according to plan 1.
If we decide for plan 2, then this move or E to e5 are of equivalent strength in my view.
I am unable to find a third plan, but looking forward to read one 
Jean
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| « Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2008, 11:28am by chessandgo » |
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #4 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 3:47am » |
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on Dec 10th, 2008, 6:14pm, warren wrote:
Hey, thanks for the links. As far as first game is concerned, 4w is silly, should be 4w Hh6n rh7n Ee5e De1n probably, with a very cute position for gold to my taste, or in any case a move not involving Md2n.
For the second game, maybe the fact that we have Cats behind traps and that Karl put a cat on c7 would indicate that he doesn't plan to answer Ennn Hb2n by essss, as he did in Ron's game, as we could play En Hb3nnn now.
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woh
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #5 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 3:54am » |
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on Dec 11th, 2008, 3:16am, chessandgo wrote:| I would root for the standard Ennn Hb2n, as it's non-commiting, and especially as it is the quicker way to go for an E+H according to plan 1. |
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I am all in favor for this move.
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #6 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 5:08am » |
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on Dec 11th, 2008, 3:16am, chessandgo wrote:I think we need to decide right now on one or several plans for the next moves, before playing "commiting" moves like the above proposal. If our Elephant is likely to go to the western side to support a Horse advance for instance, then playing an Ee step will just lose two steps. So we must make very clear that we will bring our Elephant to the eastern side before playing such a step.
Here is how I evaluate such a position with the decentralized camel for silver:
- We want to advance a Horse on western side, be it for rabbit pulling or E+H (+M+R...) attack, as silver's camel will never threaten it.
- Silver wants his Elephant on western side. I possibly don't understand Karl's motivations for playing this strategy as I believe gold has a significant advantage here, but the only reason I can find to play it as silver is the following: silver wants to get some kind of "deadlock" on western side, tying both phants there, and then use his free camel on the other wing. This will be especially effective if we have our caMel on western side while not achieving much.
- In any case, if we advance our Horse towards a6/b5/b6, it will probably need Elephant support as silver's elephant will be there.
So with these ideas, playing an Ee step will just result in a two step loss for gold, while silver will not lose any step due to our Ee5 as he doesn't want his elephant on e-file but rather on d, c or b-file.
A completely different view (which I guess you both support, arimaa_master and aaaa) would be to bring our Elephant on eastern side to prevent silver's camel from moving, and possibly pull the h7 rabbit if we can.
I wholeheartedly support the first plan, as it makes the best use imo of silver's piece imbalance, and I'm not a big fan of the second plan, as even if we manage to pull a rabbit all the way to pinning it on f3, then silver's camel on g-file will become excellently placed, ready to mess with our pinning Hg3, and not fearing to be taken hostage on this wing as there is already the pinned rf3.
In any case, I think we absolutely need to agree on a plan right now, and play our first moves in consequence. The worst thing would be to play one or two moves first, and then decide on a plan which might be incompatible with our first moves, like deciding on E to e5 now and then on plan 1, or conversely playing some Ew and Hb2nn... on moves 2 and 3 and then going for plan 2.
If we don't like to decide on a plan right now, the "non-commiting" steps (those which will likely be useful for any plan we devise in the future) are Ennn, Hb2n, and possibly Hg3n. Possibly also De1n, and finally maybe (maybe maybe) Me2n.
I would root for the standard Ennn Hb2n, as it's non-commiting, and especially as it is the quicker way to go for an E+H according to plan 1.
If we decide for plan 2, then this move or E to e5 are of equivalent strength in my view.
I am unable to find a third plan, but looking forward to read one
Jean |
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Wow Jean, very nice explanation and very appreciated.
You have definitely much more strategy understanding than me. You clearly convinced me for the first plan.
So I think now that Ennn Hb2n would be just fine.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2008, 5:46am by arimaa_master » |
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #7 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 6:10am » |
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Fritzlein chose Slytherin silver. Coincidence? I think not. I prefer Gryffindor gold.
I would go for the E->d5, H->b3 move too because of its flexibility. I also like using our E to cut off the silver m from one side of the board. I agree that we want to work to a plan. In the opening, we want several viable plans, since the opponent usually can stop any specific plan. I personally have more success with a plan that pulls things to my traps, rather than controlling opponents traps, but most good players like the opposite. As C&G notes, this move supports both. Note that in the second game warren references I lost the opening, but I think my weak moves happened later than move 2.
I think Fritzlein is expecting this move. That's OK with me. When things are even, often the expected move is the best. One of silver's response steps will be h->b6.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #8 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 7:00am » |
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on Dec 11th, 2008, 6:10am, RonWeasley wrote:| I would go for the E->d5, H->b3 move too because of its flexibility. I also like using our E to cut off the silver m from one side of the board. I agree that we want to work to a plan. In the opening, we want several viable plans, since the opponent usually can stop any specific plan. I personally have more success with a plan that pulls things to my traps, rather than controlling opponents traps, but most good players like the opposite. As C&G notes, this move supports both. Note that in the second game warren references I lost the opening, but I think my weak moves happened later than move 2. |
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I also like Hb3n followed by Ed2nnn. I agree with Chessandgo that an attack on the northwest is a logical response to a silver camel on g7 and the proposed move is simple and strong.
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #9 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 10:51am » |
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If you want a discussion from Fritz's own mouth of what his ideas are with this unbalanced setup, check this chatroom archive from August 5, 2008:
Fritzlein By the way, I currently believe that Silver has the advantage. I'm having enough success with my unbalanced setups that I think they are not only sound, but advantageous
2008-08-05 01:02:40 The_Jeh Interesting.
2008-08-05 01:03:02 The_Jeh So you think that Gold's first move is not enough steps to prepare for Silver's setup?
2008-08-05 01:03:22 Fritzlein Yes. Although I am far from sure
2008-08-05 01:03:50 Fritzlein Think how many steps of positioning it represents to set down your camels and horses anywhere
2008-08-05 01:04:15 The_Jeh I don't know. I use your setup regardless of what the other player uses, and it seems all right.
2008-08-05 01:04:23 The_Jeh With gold, too.
2008-08-05 01:04:40 Fritzlein The "ideal" reaction of Gold to Silver's setup might require eight steps of repositioning
2008-08-05 01:05:18 The_Jeh Okay, if I use the Fritz setup as gold, what is Silver's best setup?
2008-08-05 01:05:50 Fritzlein The Fritz setup has balanced horses and EM in the middle?
2008-08-05 01:06:36 The_Jeh The Fritz setup/Jeh variation has EM in the middle, dogs behind the EM, and cats behind the horses positioned at b2 and g2.
2008-08-05 01:06:51 Fritzlein Your front row looks like RHREMRHR in the front?
2008-08-05 01:07:19 The_Jeh Yes, or with the E and M switched.
2008-08-05 01:07:27 Fritzlein Then my front row will be rhrhermr
2008-08-05 01:08:11 Fritzlein As Silver I am now responding to a balanced setup with an inbalanced one
2008-08-05 01:08:56 The_Jeh Your M is on my camelside?
2008-08-05 01:09:07 Fritzlein correct
2008-08-05 01:09:44 The_Jeh I don't understand how your setup can take advantage of mine...
2008-08-05 01:10:08 The_Jeh My first move is the standard E three forward and elephant's horse up one.
2008-08-05 01:11:02 Fritzlein Check out my postal mixer game with arimaa_master where I was silver and he was gold
2008-08-05 01:11:28 The_Jeh Okay. I hope my gameviewer works.
2008-08-05 01:11:34 Fritzlein That will give you an idea what I am up to.
2008-08-05 01:12:59 Fritzlein Or my recent game with Tuks, although that had a tactical resolution of the opening rather than a strategic one.
2008-08-05 01:13:02 The_Jeh Ackkk... I'm going to have to switch to V1 to view it.
2008-08-05 01:13:31 Fritzlein too bad
2008-08-05 01:14:40 The_Jeh Okay, I'm there.
2008-08-05 01:15:37 The_Jeh Now wait, he didn't use the setup I would have, for starters.
2008-08-05 01:16:19 Fritzlein Well, if you want to know how I will respond to specific moves, we will have to play a game
2008-08-05 01:16:27 Fritzlein The point is the strategy
2008-08-05 01:16:36 The_Jeh I think I get the drift of your logic.
2008-08-05 01:16:57 Fritzlein He wanted to attack my camel with his elephant, but my flank rabbits keep it safe
2008-08-05 01:17:05 The_Jeh You respond to that standard move by bringing your elephant straight out to threaten the trap where the horse was unadvanced.
2008-08-05 01:17:20 Fritzlein Or not
2008-08-05 01:17:38 Fritzlein It's the role of my flank camel I want to emphasize
2008-08-05 01:17:42 The_Jeh Game 77932?
2008-08-05 01:18:02 Fritzlein The flank camel is what I get as Silver that you don't get as Gold
2008-08-05 01:18:19 Fritzlein Yes, that game
2008-08-05 01:18:38 Fritzlein My elephant forward four was a tactic, not a strategy
2008-08-05 01:19:01 The_Jeh Okay.
2008-08-05 01:19:04 Fritzlein If he had rabbits behind his traps, I wouldn't be able to do it
2008-08-05 01:19:49 Fritzlein The strategy is that I put my camel in the west, but my elephant force his elephant to operate in the east.
2008-08-05 01:19:53 The_Jeh So you advance your flank rabbits to retreat the camel.
2008-08-05 01:19:58 Fritzlein Yes
2008-08-05 01:20:29 Fritzlein Now he could use his elephant to attack my advanced rabbits, but I'll just let him take a rabbit in the west while I take his horse in the east
2008-08-05 01:20:57 Fritzlein (Nice win over OpFor, by the way)
2008-08-05 01:21:10 The_Jeh I would not have moved my camel to the side opposite yours in the first place.
2008-08-05 01:21:14 The_Jeh Thank you.
2008-08-05 01:22:19 Fritzlein You would move your camel to the same wing as mine?
2008-08-05 01:22:37 The_Jeh Certainly.
2008-08-05 01:22:42 Fritzlein Great, then I'll have EHH vs. EH in the east.
2008-08-05 01:23:04 Fritzlein Since your camel is gone, I can attack with EH and no fear
2008-08-05 01:23:22 Fritzlein I'll pull your H too
2008-08-05 01:23:27 The_Jeh What if I attacked with EH on 3w?
2008-08-05 01:23:35 Fritzlein East or west?
2008-08-05 01:24:03 The_Jeh East.
2008-08-05 01:24:23 Fritzlein I have two horses defending there. What do I have to fear?
2008-08-05 01:24:49 Fritzlein As I said, if you have rabbits behind your traps, I won't open with elephant forward four.
2008-08-05 01:25:00 Fritzlein That tactic works only when I can win material
2008-08-05 01:25:03 The_Jeh My elephant would be on e6, and my horse on g6.
2008-08-05 01:25:17 The_Jeh Okay, gotcha.
2008-08-05 01:25:18 Fritzlein otherwise I'll put my horse on g6 on move 2b
2008-08-05 01:25:51 Fritzlein Strategically your EH attack where I have EHH to defend is going nowhere
2008-08-05 01:26:14 Fritzlein I welcome it. I will take your H hostage with my E and threaten to frame it
2008-08-05 01:26:41 Fritzlein I will take you H hostage with my e and threaten to frame it.
2008-08-05 01:26:57 The_Jeh I was thinking with you opening forward four.
2008-08-05 01:27:06 Fritzlein Sure
2008-08-05 01:27:20 The_Jeh But still...
2008-08-05 01:27:41 Fritzlein Anyway, strategically, it will be my ehh against your EH in the east. Wouldn't you expect that battle to favor me?
2008-08-05 01:28:20 The_Jeh Because I can't attack with MH against M in the west?
2008-08-05 01:28:21 Fritzlein I can attack your home trap with one horse while having the other to defend mine against counter-attack
2008-08-05 01:28:59 Fritzlein Oh, you want to advance your M in the west? Then, I confess, my elephant will have to come back and step on you
2008-08-05 01:29:52 The_Jeh Now, now...
2008-08-05 01:29:56 Fritzlein Let us suppose that scenario is equal.
2008-08-05 01:30:29 Fritzlein If nothing else, you had to waste the tempo of your first move to get your camel over to the side that mine started on.
2008-08-05 01:30:54 Fritzlein My setup was worth tempi
2008-08-05 01:31:35 The_Jeh My camel is on the side that yours is even if it is in the center.
2008-08-05 01:32:07 Fritzlein But I will claim that the situation is not equal, because both of my horses are on the wing opposite your camel, whereas only one of your horses is far away from my camel
2008-08-05 01:32:31 Fritzlein You talked about attacking with your camel; hardly possible if it is in the center
2008-08-05 01:33:04 The_Jeh I was just positing it.
2008-08-05 01:33:14 Fritzlein You can defend with your camel in the center all day: I don't care because I'm attacking the east
2008-08-05 01:34:04 The_Jeh So why can't I retreat my elephant and take your attacking horse hostage?
2008-08-05 01:34:16 The_Jeh If you said you were leaving one on defense.
2008-08-05 01:34:29 Fritzlein I don't care if you take my attacking horse hostage with your elephant if you camel is on the other wing
2008-08-05 01:35:25 The_Jeh I see.
2008-08-05 01:35:28 Fritzlein You don't have the means to frame it in the east without your camel to help
2008-08-05 01:35:50 Fritzlein Meanwhile I _do_ have the means to frame your horse in the east with my EHH
2008-08-05 01:36:11 Fritzlein and if I get the frame, woe is you
2008-08-05 01:36:56 Fritzlein As in the game against arimaa_master, I'm already set up to rotate out my elephant, leaving me in control of both sides of the board
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| « Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2008, 11:03am by The_Jeh » |
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Adanac
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #10 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 12:40pm » |
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Thanks for posting the discussion Jeh. So Karl believes that he has the advantage because his 2 horses will neutralize the E+H attack, eh? We'll ask him how he feels when our camel joins the fun 
I still agree with the Hb3n as a 4th step for Move #2 regardless of whether or not we're planning the E+H. It's a strong, flexible move that hasn't yet committed us to any plan.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #11 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 1:00pm » |
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In my postal against Fritz, I started by trying to get one of his horses to stick to my central M so I could pull it back. He foiled this and pulled my H into his two horses and e. I converted this into an E+H but his two horses kept my H from doing anything. I tried to use my M to get one of those horses out of there, but ended up getting my M stuck instead.
The point is that with better tactics from TheMob, pulling back one of the horses to our central M might become one of our alternate plans, or a tactical point in our E+H attack on c6.
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jdb
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #12 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 1:20pm » |
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Quote:| 2008-08-05 01:19:49 Fritzlein The strategy is that I put my camel in the west, but my elephant force his elephant to operate in the east. |
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Quote:| - Silver wants his Elephant on western side. I possibly don't understand Karl's motivations for playing this strategy as I believe gold has a significant advantage here, but the only reason I can find to play it as silver is the following: silver wants to get some kind of "deadlock" on western side, tying both phants there, and then use his free camel on the other wing. This will be especially effective if we have our caMel on western side while not achieving much. |
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I reviewed some of Fritz's games where he placed the M on the wing. I think chessandgo is correct in thinking that silver is aiming to deadlock the E's on the western side of the board. The cat on c7 (instead of a rabbit) indicates silver is willing to defend the c6 trap to allow his M to move about on the other wing. In both the posted games, watch how fritz's camel hides until the E's are committed then it suddenly pops its head out.
Is there a plan that doesn't involve committing our elephant?
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tize
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #14 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 3:44pm » |
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How about Enn Hbn Hgn. Is that to passive? It's a move I use occasionally, it's a non-commited move that shouldn't waste to many steps.
Of course it doesn't threaten a E+H attack...
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