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   Author  Topic: Move 36  (Read 3978 times)
warren
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Re: Move 36
« Reply #15 on: Jul 27th, 2008, 7:18am »
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Last move we did analyze a 36w that's pretty similar to what he actually played:
 
36w Rc1e Rd1e Re1n Re2n (jdb)
 36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s (F)
 .37w Dd4e De4e Hf1w Rg1n (99)
 .37w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Dd4e (F)
 . 37b ef2n ef3s Re3e Rf3x rg4w
 . .38w Hf1w Eb3n hb2n Rd2n
 . . 38b ce7s rf7s rf6s rd5s
 . . .39w hb3e hc3x Eb4s Rg1w Rd3e
 . . . 39b ef2w Re3e Rf3x ee2n ce6s
 
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 36
« Reply #16 on: Jul 27th, 2008, 8:06am »
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on Jul 27th, 2008, 7:18am, warren wrote:
Last move we did analyze a 36w that's pretty similar to what he actually played:
 
36w Rc1e Rd1e Re1n Re2n (jdb)

That's true, and intuitively, jdb's suggestion was stronger than chessandgo's actual move.  Jdb left rabbits on c2 and d2 instead of c1 and d3, so there was a threat for Gold to sweep across the third rank with his elephant.  Chessandgo's version loses this threat in exchange for perhaps keeping our d5-rabbit out of d3 in some lines, and for perhaps defending c3 or f3 with his d3-rabbit in some lines.
 
Note that the one long line in the tree has 38w Hf1w Eb3n hb2n Rd2n, where Gold's fourth step could perhaps now be saved because his rabbit is already on d3.  I don't know if that tempo could make a difference, though, without setting up the position again and re-analyzing.
 
Sorry to tease you about chessandgo sidestepping the entire analysis tree.  I know it was disheartening for me when I was maintaining the tree.  My point about forgetting analysis during chessandgo's long think was that it is important to remember the ideas and strategic themes from before, as opposed to specific moves, but I take your point that reviewing the analysis tree can help us remember those themes.
« Last Edit: Jul 27th, 2008, 8:13am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

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Re: Move 36
« Reply #17 on: Jul 27th, 2008, 8:21am »
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on Jul 26th, 2008, 8:30am, Gerenuk wrote:

but maybe I can contribute suggestions for chessandgo's counter moves as I haven't been surprised by his moves so much.

Suggestions are always welcome, as they help us broaden our understanding of the position.  It is worth noting however, that we are winning (or at least have a competitive position) despite having been surprised again and again.  I was trained from my days of playing chess to believe that "I didn't think of his reply," was synonymous with "My move was a mistake."  That equivalence seems not to be true for Arimaa, though.  This is one of the wonderful things about Arimaa.  The winner is not the person who never overlooks anything; it is possible to make consistently strong moves without seeing every possible response.
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Re: Move 36
« Reply #18 on: Jul 27th, 2008, 8:26am »
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on Jul 26th, 2008, 8:30am, UruramTururam wrote:
My first thought: ef2w ee2w Rd3w ed2n

I'm afraid that if our elephant goes back to defend the c3-trap now, chessandgo will just re-hostage our dog with his horse, so we'll have to run back to the f3-trap, and then he'll re-threaten us in the c3-trap, etc.  It looks like every cycle of running back and forth, he gains time, until his position is so strong we have to lose material somewhere.
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 36
« Reply #19 on: Jul 27th, 2008, 10:27am »
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My first thought about this position was:
 
36b Cg3e dg2n rb5s ce7s  
 
(with idea to place the rabbit to c4 (thus in possible captures there will be rabbit and not dog in danger)).
 
but now I think that Fritzlein's:
 
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s
 
is for sure better (for reasonings already given by Fritzlein and Others).
 
 
Anybody has any better idea? Because so far seems to me that 36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s is our only viable option (and by voice vote we can force chessandgo into time pressure).
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UruramTururam
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Re: Move 36
« Reply #20 on: Jul 27th, 2008, 12:41pm »
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on Jul 27th, 2008, 5:20am, jdb wrote:
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s  
 
This looks like a logical move to look at. It puts the most pressure on Gold's position.

 
Yup. Currently I'm for it too.
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Re: Move 36
« Reply #21 on: Jul 27th, 2008, 3:28pm »
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After
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s (F)
I don't think we have to worry about him killing our dog
.37w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Dd4e
because after
..37b ef2n ef3s Re3e Rf3x rg4w
our rabbits on d5 and f4 are strong goal threats and his position falls apart.
 
Update:
After
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s
a better way for him to kill our dog is
37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Da3e
after which we seem to be slightly ahead, e.g.
37b dg3w df3e Re3e Rf3x rg4w
38w Rd3e Dd4e rf4n De4e
38b rb5e rc5s rd5s rd4s
39w Ec2n Ec3s rc4s Rc1e
« Last Edit: Jul 27th, 2008, 4:05pm by warren » IP Logged
warren
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« Reply #22 on: Jul 27th, 2008, 4:03pm »
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As usual I'll augment this as we analyze.
 
 36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s (F)
.    37w Re3n Re4e Rd3e Rc1n
.    .    37b dg3w df3e Rf4s rg4w
.    .    .    38w Dd4e De4w rf4w Rf3n
.    .    .    .    38b dg3w Re3s df3w de3w
.    37w Dd4e De4e Rc1n Rd3n
.    .    37b ef2n Df4n ef3n dc4n
.    .    .    38w Eb3e hb2n Ec3n hb3e hc3x
.    .    .    .    38b Df5n Df6x ef4n ef5s dc5n
.    .    .    38w Re3n Re4n Df5e Da3n
.    .    .    .    38b ef4s ef3s rg4w rf4w
.    37w Dd4e De4e Re3e Rd3n
.    .    37b Rd4s dc4e rd5e re5s
.    .    .    38w Rc1e Rd1n Rd3e Rd2n
.    .    .    .    38b rb5e rc5s Rd3s dd4s
.    .    .    38w Rc1n Eb3e Rd3e Ec3w
.    .    .    .    38b rb5e rc5s dd4s ce7s
.    .    .    .    .    39w Eb3e Ec3w rc4s Hf1w
.    .    .    .    .    .    39b ef2w ee2w He1n ce6s
.   37w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Dd4e (W)
.   .   37b ef2n ef3s Re3e Rf3x rg4w (W)
.   37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Da3e (W)
.   .   37b dg3w df3e Re3e Rf3x rg4w
.   .   .   38w Rd3e Dd4e rf4n De4e
.   .   .   .   38b rb5e rc5s rd5s rd4s
.   .   .   .   .   39w Ec2n Ec3s rc4s Rc1e
.   .   37b dg3w rg4s rg3s df3e (jdb)
.   .   .   38w Ec2e hb2e Rc1e Dd4w (W/bomb)
.   .   .   .   38b Hf1w ef2s rd5e re5e
.   .   .   .   .   39w He1n He2e Rd1e Rd3n
.   .   .   .   .   .   39b Re1w ef1w ee1n rf5s
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   40w hc2n hc3x Ed2w Ec2e Rd4n
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   40b Re3n ee2n ee3s ce7s
 
 
36b Cg3w dg2n rg6s rg5s (jdb)
.   37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Cf3n
.   .   37b dg3w Cf4n df3n rg4s  
.   .   .   38w Ec2e hb2e hc2n hc3x Ed2w (w/bomb)
.   .   .   .   38b ef2w Re3e Rf3x ee2n rb5e
.   .   .   .   .   39w Ec2e Dd4w Rd3n Ed2e
.   .   .   .   .   .   39b Cf5n Cf6x df4n ee3e ef3s
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   40w Ee2n Da3e Dc4w rc5s
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   40b ef2e eg2w Rg1n rh7s
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   41w Rc1e Rd1e Hf1e Re1e
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   41b ef2w df5s rg3w rf3s
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   42w Rg2n Hg1n rf2n Hg2w
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   42b ee2w Hf2w ed2n rd5w
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   43w Ra2e Rb2e Rb1e He2e
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   43b ed3w Db3w ec3w rc8w
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   44w Ee3n Ee4s df4w rf3x Ee3w  
 
36b Cg3e dg2n rf7s rf6s (W)
 
36b ef2w ee2w Rd3w ed2n (UT)
 
36b Cg3e dg2n rb5s ce7s  (AM)
« Last Edit: Jul 30th, 2008, 7:27pm by warren » IP Logged
warren
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Re: Move 36
« Reply #23 on: Jul 27th, 2008, 4:43pm »
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on Jul 27th, 2008, 10:27am, arimaa_master wrote:

Anybody has any better idea? Because so far seems to me that 36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s is our only viable option (and by voice vote we can force chessandgo into time pressure).

A minor variation on that 36b that's worth considering is:
 
36b Cg3e dg2n rf7s rf6s
 
The idea: if we push the f7 rabbit first, we can always push the g6 rabbit later, but once the g6 rabbit is pushed the f7 rabbit can't walk through the trap. The square g4 may look more threatening than f5, but a rabbit can move from either square to f4 in one step.
« Last Edit: Jul 27th, 2008, 4:45pm by warren » IP Logged
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Re: Move 36
« Reply #24 on: Jul 27th, 2008, 8:00pm »
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on Jul 27th, 2008, 10:27am, arimaa_master wrote:
(and by voice vote we can force chessandgo into time pressure).

I strongly object to a quick move.  Chessandgo thought long and hard about his last move, therefore we should consider our reply very carefully.  He may well have left traps for us on the "obvious" roads.  Also, there's not much chance of putting him under real "time pressure", because for an individual player, 7 days is a long time to analyze if he feels the need to use it well.  And even if we spend time on our move, he's unlikely to analyze much during our move, unless he considers it forced (which is doubtful since we have surprised him like he has us).
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Re: Move 36
« Reply #25 on: Jul 28th, 2008, 6:12am »
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on Jul 26th, 2008, 10:16am, Fritzlein wrote:

 
It doesn't make sense as a part of the racing plan, "I'll defend for one move, then start capturing."  Therefore I infer that he intends to defend the f3-trap on his next move as well.  Of course, before we race we still need to look at lines where he captures beginning next move, but it seems extremely likely that if we were OK on that race before, we will be in better shape now, because of his delay-causing rabbit on d3.

 
What about the possibility that chessandgo defended f3 for one move by sacrificing a rabbit in order to take the dog and keep our horse hostage? Look at Warren's tree of moves here.
 
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s
a better way for him to kill our dog is
37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Da3e
after which we seem to be slightly ahead, e.g.
37b dg3w df3e Re3e Rf3x rg4w
38w Rd3e Dd4e rf4n De4e
38b rb5e rc5s rd5s rd4s
39w Ec2n Ec3s rc4s Rc1e  
 
Unless warren and I are missing something and we have a better sequence of moves then shown above, I think chessandgo would be happy with trading his R for our D and continuing with this unclear line.  I think this line should be looked at more carefully before proceeding.
 
 
« Last Edit: Jul 28th, 2008, 6:12am by mistre » IP Logged

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Re: Move 36
« Reply #26 on: Jul 28th, 2008, 10:40am »
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Ah, thanks warren.  I didn't see that the rabbit on d3 gives chessandgo the option of a delayed defense of the f3-trap on 38w instead of 37w.  However, I don't much like 37b dg3w df3e Re3e Rf3x rg4w, putting our rabbit on f4, so that he can push it to f5, blocking us from pushing his dog to f5.  We do not need our rabbit on f4 to glue his horse to f1 anyway, because he can't take our horse and save his at the same time.  My hunch is that a different 37b gives us a clearer advantage, so a different 36b isn't necessary.  But you are right mistre, we need to look at it more.  Maybe a different 36b is indeed called for.
« Last Edit: Jul 28th, 2008, 10:42am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

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Re: Move 36
« Reply #27 on: Jul 28th, 2008, 12:58pm »
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on Jul 27th, 2008, 4:43pm, warren wrote:

A minor variation on that 36b that's worth considering is:
 
36b Cg3e dg2n rf7s rf6s
 
The idea: if we push the f7 rabbit first, we can always push the g6 rabbit later, but once the g6 rabbit is pushed the f7 rabbit can't walk through the trap. The square g4 may look more threatening than f5, but a rabbit can move from either square to f4 in one step.

The drawback of putting our rabbit on f5, though, is that we can't push his dog to f5 as in the line
 
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s
.    37w Dd4e De4e Rc1n Rd3n
.    .    37b ef2n Df4n ef3n dc4n
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Re: Move 36
« Reply #28 on: Jul 29th, 2008, 5:10am »
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36b Cg3w dg2n rg6s rg5s
 
37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Cf3n
37b dg3w Cf4n df3n rg4s
 
There are lots of other defensive options but,
 
If the d4 dog leaves d4 and goes to hold back the rabbit, the c4 dog can go to d3.
 
 
 
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Re: Move 36
« Reply #29 on: Jul 29th, 2008, 5:14am »
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on Jul 28th, 2008, 6:12am, mistre wrote:

 
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s
a better way for him to kill our dog is
37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Da3e
after which we seem to be slightly ahead, e.g.
37b dg3w df3e Re3e Rf3x rg4w
38w Rd3e Dd4e rf4n De4e
38b rb5e rc5s rd5s rd4s
39w Ec2n Ec3s rc4s Rc1e  
 

 
37b dg3w rg4s rg3s df3e
 
And let the bots at it after that.
 
 
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