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   Move 12
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   Author  Topic: Move 12  (Read 4606 times)
RonWeasley
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Move 12
« on: Aug 22nd, 2007, 2:24pm »
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Well it looks like I survived by trip with Harry, so I'm back to coordinate TheMob.  Things are a bit dicey for the Slytherins these days, which may explain Fritzlein buckling under the pressure.  Thanx to Fritzlein for covering for me in his snake-like way.  At least it kept him away from Hogwarts.
 
We'll see if TheMob has taken the initiative with that horse move or simply given chessandgo a fat, juicy target.
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #1 on: Aug 23rd, 2007, 5:27pm »
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Chessandgo has chosen 12w hb6w Eb5n Eb6s rb7s.
 
Apparently, he thinks we will lose more positionally from him pulling our b-file rabbit than he will from us pulling his h-file rabbit.
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #2 on: Aug 23rd, 2007, 6:14pm »
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12b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n
 
This seems idiot simple.  If we race straight up, both sides will capture on move 14, leaving chessandgo with move 15w to take the initiative, which would mean we were slightly losing.  But we don't have to race straight up, we can complicate on 13b.  The fact that both elephants are near his rabbit pull seems to favor us.
 
My clinching argument for the straightforward move is not so much that it is a good move as that I don't see anything else for us.  Trying to complicate on this move seems to waste us more time than it gains us.  Is this one of those rare moves on which a snap vote is appropriate?  Maybe the sentiment won't be as unanimous as I think.
 
Now that the game is more unsettled, it is harder for me to evaluate.  Does anyone have an opinion as to who is winning?
« Last Edit: Aug 23rd, 2007, 6:15pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

The_Jeh
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #3 on: Aug 23rd, 2007, 8:38pm »
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Maybe 12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n xxxx (ha6n?).
 
My only reasoning would be that we could complicate things by threatening to flip his horse or pull his dog. Also, it puts our elephant beside the c3 trap early. But I actually like your idea just as well, Fritzlein.
« Last Edit: Aug 23rd, 2007, 8:38pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
RonWeasley
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #4 on: Aug 24th, 2007, 6:32am »
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I would do both pulls on this move.  After gold flips our r we get another pull and two steps, presumeably ed4w rb4w.  If we don't do both pulls on this move, we end up in a similar position after 13b but with one less pull of gold's rabbit.
 
If there is only sparse discussion, I will start the vote on Monday morning (EDT) ending Tuesday morning if we have 10 votes and Tuesday evening otherwise.  Remember, if this is an easy decision then voting early will put more time back into our reserve.
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UruramTururam
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #5 on: Aug 24th, 2007, 7:20am »
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C&G decided to ignore our charge...  
I suggest playing:
 
12b md6e ed4w ec4n Hc3n
 
Reasoning:
 
md6e:  
  • moves our m farther from opponent's E
  • secures f6
  • allows m-h attack on f3
     
    ed4w ec4n:
  • seals E - now it needs quite a long time to switch wings
     
    Hc3n
  • makes the seal even stronger.
     
    Now gold cannot afford to flip our r (H is lost).  
     
    The answer could possibly be  
    13w Eb5s rb4s Hc4s xxx
     
    if xxx is Eb4e then our r is safe for a while and we may double pull the left wing R.
     
    if xxx is hc3e then our answer should contain moving our e southwards blocking golden E.
  • « Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2007, 5:50pm by UruramTururam » IP Logged

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    99of9
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    Re: Move 12
    « Reply #6 on: Aug 24th, 2007, 7:24am »
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    on Aug 24th, 2007, 6:32am, RonWeasley wrote:
    After gold flips our r we get another pull and two steps, presumeably ed4w rb4w.

    Whoah...  why will he flip?  The drag leaves it much harder for us to compicate with 2 steps:
    13w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e rb5s
     
    Jeh's move means we get the prominent c4 outpost.  An alternative final step is dd8s.
     
    I'm not sure which is better, but I'd like to hear some better analysis before fasttracking the double pull.
    « Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2007, 9:23am by 99of9 » IP Logged
    Fritzlein
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    Re: Move 12
    « Reply #7 on: Aug 24th, 2007, 8:37am »
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    on Aug 24th, 2007, 7:24am, 99of9 wrote:

    Whoah...  why will he flip?  The drag leaves it much harder for us to compicate with 2 steps:
    13w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e rb5s

    Oops, I didn't see the drag.  I was assuming he would flip.  As usual the position isn't as easy as it first appears.
     
    If we pull once and occupy c4 with our elephant, we need to be more aware of chessandgo pulling once and centralizing his elephant to go after our camel, or directly going after our camel, since we've lost a step decentralizing our elephant.
     
    Now that our double-pull looks inferior, I will venture to guess that we are slightly losing, although we need more lines to be confident of anything in a race-like position.
    « Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2007, 8:39am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

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    Re: Move 12
    « Reply #8 on: Aug 24th, 2007, 9:11am »
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    12b hh3n Rh2n ed4w rb6e
     
    I think silver needs to drag the rabbit one step on this move. The reason being, in some lines, the horse can flip the rabbit instead of dragging it. After flipping, the horse on h4 has the possibility of sneaking a second rabbit pull from h1. If the horse is on h5, this is not possible.
     
    Putting the elephant on c4 is important. It threatens gold's c3 horse. This means gold can at best drag the rabbit one step since he needs to spend a step to tend to the horse.
     
    Moving the rabbit to c6 makes it harder for gold to continue dragging the rabbit. If gold drags it to c5, he has to decide which side of the c5/c4 wall to put his elephant on. He has weaknesses on either side of the wall (a2 rabbit, h3 rabbit), so either way we should get something out of it.  
     
    Some possible lines:
     
    A)
    12b hh3n Rh2n ed4w rb6e
    13w Eb5n Eb6n Eb7s rb8s
    13b ec4e Hc3n Hc4n ed4w
     
    B)
    12b hh3n Rh2n ed4w rb6e
    13w Eb5e Ec5w rc6s Hc3e
    13b hh4w Rh3n Rh4n hg4e
     
    C)
    12b hh3n Rh2n ed4w rb6e
    13w Eb5e Ec5e rc6s Ed5e
    13b hh4n Rh3n hh5w hg5n
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
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    arimaa_master
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    Re: Move 12
    « Reply #9 on: Aug 24th, 2007, 12:31pm »
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    12b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n - at first glance it seemed to me like the only one possible good move but after reading through the suggested moves now I changed my mind too Smiley (mainly due to that devilish drag of our rabbit ending with c4 phant for Chessandgo)
     
     12b md6e ed4w ec4n Hc3n - at first sight it looks good but then I changed my mind because of 13w Eb5s rb6s Hc4s Eb4e but now I changed my mind again coz after 13b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n it looks playable.
     
     
     12b hh3n Rh2n ed4w rb6e  - this is very interesting move though after  
     
         13w Eb5e Ec5e rc6s ra2e
         13b hh4n Rh3n hh5n Rh4n
         14w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5n De2
     
    there are some sharp lines where I am not quite sure who could be better.
     
     
    Thus  12b md6e ed4w ec4n Hc3n is my favourite so far.
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    Re: Move 12
    « Reply #10 on: Aug 24th, 2007, 1:26pm »
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    on Aug 24th, 2007, 12:31pm, arimaa_master wrote:
     12b hh3n Rh2n ed4w rb6e  - this is very interesting move though after  
     
         13w Eb5e Ec5e rc6s ra2e
         13b hh4n Rh3n hh5n Rh4n
         14w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5n De2
     
    there are some sharp lines where I am not quite sure who could be better.

     
    12b hh3n Rh2n ed4w rb6e
    13w Eb5e Ec5e rc6s ra2e
    13b ha6s ec4w eb4e Db3n
     
    Gold's dog is in danger, so gold can either safe it, or find a bigger threat somewhere else. Either way I think silver is ok, but again the position is getting sharp and some checking would be required.
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    UruramTururam
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    Re: Move 12
    « Reply #11 on: Aug 24th, 2007, 5:57pm »
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    For hh3n Rh2n ed4w rb6e we risk:
    13w Eb5e Ec5e rc6s Hc3e
    and we have golden E in the center freezing our camel and charging towards our horse, not to mention the rabbit in trouble. I think we should keep the golden Elephant out of the center now.
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    Re: Move 12
    « Reply #12 on: Aug 24th, 2007, 7:14pm »
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    on Aug 24th, 2007, 5:57pm, UruramTururam wrote:
    For hh3n Rh2n ed4w rb6e we risk:
    13w Eb5e Ec5e rc6s Hc3e
    and we have golden E in the center freezing our camel and charging towards our horse, not to mention the rabbit in trouble. I think we should keep the golden Elephant out of the center now.

     
    12b hh3n Rh2n ed4w rb6e  
    13w Eb5e Ec5e rc6s Hc3e
    13b ha6s ec4w eb4e Db3n  
     
    I think silver is ok here, but maybe gold still has something.
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    Fritzlein
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    Re: Move 12
    « Reply #13 on: Aug 24th, 2007, 8:37pm »
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    on Aug 24th, 2007, 7:20am, UruramTururam wrote:
    C&G decided to ignore our charge...  
    I suggest playing:
     
    12b md6e ed4w ec4n Hc3n

    Now that I've done a little more analysis rather than just spouting off my instincts, I am starting to like UruramTururam's move.  If Chessandgo doesn't pull our rabbit once, he isn't making any progress, but he can't pull it twice, so next move it is pre-unfrozen and able to move to a5, for a gain in the race large enough to spend the whole present move on.
     
    Furthermore, if the Gold elephant doesn't swing to c4, our elephant can take one step to restore the hindrance.
     
    12b md6e ed4w ec4n Hc3n
    13w Eb5s rb6s Hc4s Rh2w
    13b ec5s hh3s hh2n Rh1n
     
    and I think we are ahead.  So it seems that Gold must let us retreat our rabbit with
     
    12b md6e ed4w ec4n Hc3n
    13w Eb5s rb6s Hc4s Eb4e
    13b rb5w hh3n Rh2n xxxx
     
    Where we are slightly behind in the race, but this is somewhat compensated by the awkwardness of Gold's piece placement.
     
    Just one point of disagreement:
     
    Quote:
    md6e:  
  • moves our m farther from opponent's E
  • secures f6
  • allows m-h attack on f3

  • I do not think we should contemplate an MH attack any time in the foreseeable future.  It's too slow and can't accomplish anything.  An EMH attack is more within the realm of possibility, but that doesn't combine well with a rabbit pull, i.e. once we pull the h-rabbit, he may have an easier time defending against an EMH attack, so we should choose only the one that looks better (the rabbit pull IMHO).
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    Re: Move 12
    « Reply #14 on: Aug 24th, 2007, 9:57pm »
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    on Aug 24th, 2007, 8:37pm, Fritzlein wrote:

    Now that I've done a little more analysis rather than just spouting off my instincts, I am starting to like UruramTururam's move.  If Chessandgo doesn't pull our rabbit once, he isn't making any progress, but he can't pull it twice, so next move it is pre-unfrozen and able to move to a5, for a gain in the race large enough to spend the whole present move on.
     
    Furthermore, if the Gold elephant doesn't swing to c4, our elephant can take one step to restore the hindrance.
     
    12b md6e ed4w ec4n Hc3n
    13w Eb5s rb6s Hc4s Rh2w
    13b ec5s hh3s hh2n Rh1n
     

     
    12b md6e ed4w ec4n Hc3n
    13w Eb5s rb6s Hc4s Hc3e
     
    How does silver maintain the advantage now? Gold's dog and horse are not on the usual squares. Is there a way to take advantage of this?
     
     
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