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Topic: Game viewer / analysis tool (Read 63109 times) |
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clojure
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Arimaa player #5004
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #60 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 1:08pm » |
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I felt that it was time to get it as fast as I could for slower machines with the dom based approach, so I made changes and I got one feedback that it works better in Firefox.
I had to struggle to get it work with Chrome but finally I found the small culprit, and I am baffled whether the cause was a bug in browser, since it worked locally but not via my homepage.
If any of you notices problems with the animation or graphics, please let me know. It would be best handled now, when everything is fresh in my memory.
In the foggy future I think a canvas based approach will be an alternative for cooler outlook.
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leo
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #61 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 3:39am » |
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I've been trying the newest versions of the game viewer and game tutorial and both look really nice and feel responsive on Chrome and Firefox.
I'm still a bit puzzled by the ghost pieces that show the future steps (although I was thinking of something vaguely similar years ago) but it's a cool feature, as well as the highlighted destination squares in the tutorial.
The font for the comment boxes still feel very small to my eyes. I'll test the game logic and log tree functions again to see if any new bugs slipped in meanwhile. I haven't tested the Chrome extension yet, will do soon.
I'm really amazed at the pace of the projet, and I hope I can integrate the notation converter into it. You said you consider using html5 canvas, but I really think SVG would be a much better option than canvas. In SVG you can insert and animate raster pictures such as the board and pieces pictures and mix them with vector graphics of all kinds.
More comments will come!
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #62 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 6:54am » |
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on Sep 28th, 2010, 3:39am, leo wrote:I've been trying the newest versions of the game viewer and game tutorial and both look really nice and feel responsive on Chrome and Firefox.
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Good to hear. This verification is important for me. Makes me go *phew*.
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I'm still a bit puzzled by the ghost pieces that show the future steps (although I was thinking of something vaguely similar years ago) but it's a cool feature, as well as the highlighted destination squares in the tutorial.
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I'm puzzled too, they certainly can be improved upon but are already there so that people can give feedback, and even though I don't like the look of the ghosts in the viewer, I feel that I can grasp the situation quicker when they are on (luckily for those of you don't like them, can switch them off).
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The font for the comment boxes still feel very small to my eyes. |
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Hmm. Gotta fix that, not sure why I didn't get it right for the first time.
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I'll test the game logic and log tree functions again to see if any new bugs slipped in meanwhile.
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This is really helpful, since the bugs I had to smack, the hideous ones, were in the variation moving and deleting parts, since I move them around one by one, and not rebuild them (at least yet). I also feel that I haven't yet abstracted all the important things in the code, which makes these details hard to handle.
Quote:You said you consider using html5 canvas, but I really think SVG would be a much better option than canvas. In SVG you can insert and animate raster pictures such as the board and pieces pictures and mix them with vector graphics of all kinds.
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I like this comment, since it brings an option I haven't even considered. Well, that's because I haven't ever used SGVs. If I can make the board look as stylish as with the canvas, and it works smoothly, I probably don't have objection. I rather even could fancy it, since it makes possible more interesting dynamic markups.
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Tsunami party everyone! 
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omar
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #64 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 8:42am » |
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If there was a way to setup the initial pieces via a JavaScript variable embedded in the page then this could also be used for interactive puzzles; like "gold to move and win in 2". Having the bot search 2 plys in JavaScript might be the most challenging part.
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leo
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #65 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 9:03am » |
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on Sep 28th, 2010, 6:54am, clojure wrote:| Well, that's because I haven't ever used SGVs. If I can make the board look as stylish as with the canvas, and it works smoothly, I probably don't have objection. I rather even could fancy it, since it makes possible more interesting dynamic markups. |
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I'm going to send you a little html/svg experiment I did when I planned to make an svg interface for the position notation converter and the shared board - said interface I stopped developing when I saw your game viewer as a savior 
SVG is used all across mobile devices and major browsers (except in IE unless you install a plugin, or you wait for IE9 to come out). It's really like having open standard Flash.
on Sep 28th, 2010, 8:19am, omar wrote:| I love the surprise after winning a game |
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There's also one when you lose a game, and the biggest surprise is that Clojure managed to get the same picture to express two different emotions. By the way, I've been discussing with him about making pictures especially for that, and I'm all ears for ideas.
on Sep 28th, 2010, 8:42am, omar wrote:| If there was a way to setup the initial pieces via a JavaScript variable embedded in the page then this could also be used for interactive puzzles |
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That would also allow to link to the position converter once it's integrated into the viewer.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 28th, 2010, 9:08am by leo » |
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clojure
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New bitbucket repository
« Reply #66 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 9:33am » |
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on Sep 28th, 2010, 8:42am, omar wrote:| If there was a way to setup the initial pieces via a JavaScript variable embedded in the page then this could also be used for interactive puzzles; like "gold to move and win in 2". Having the bot search 2 plys in JavaScript might be the most challenging part. |
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Sure, this is a feature to be added. What comes to javascript, there could be option that it requires browser support for web workers, so that the browser won't halt and start complaining that the script should be stopped.
I'm not sure whether it's infeasible to solve the problem with limited set of pieces. Or at least the designer could add "superficial" pieces that bot ignores when calculating the defense.
It seems this tutorial getting off the ground, so I put it also to a public Bitbucket page, separate from the viewer, since the requirements are a bit different. Of course, some of the code will be shared (but as copies).
http://bitbucket.org/egaga/arimaa-tutorial/overview
I'll be adding some tasks there, feel free to comment or add your own. I don't mind if the task is only vague idea (as you might have noticed, I babble myself a lot).
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #67 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 9:45am » |
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on Sep 28th, 2010, 9:03am, leo wrote:
I'm going to send you a little html/svg experiment I did when I planned to make an svg interface for the position notation converter and the shared board - said interface I stopped developing when I saw your game viewer as a savior
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Oh no. Something stopped because of me.
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SVG is used all across mobile devices and major browsers (except in IE unless you install a plugin, or you wait for IE9 to come out). It's really like having open standard Flash.
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Good info, keep 'em coming.
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By the way, I've been discussing with him about making pictures especially for that, and I'm all ears for ideas.
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All credit to Leo for his original pictures that I only stripped/modified a tiny bit (magic hand in Paint.net is handy!).
I'd like to keep the tutorial without any credits, so that it focuses fully on the subject of Arimaa but I'll put a small signature if you want for you. Anyone who truly knows me, knows that I haven't made those pics just by glimpse of it, others by clicking a link and seeing art of mine (second page). http://personal.inet.fi/koti/egaga/tekstit/cooperation.pdf
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| « Last Edit: Sep 28th, 2010, 9:47am by clojure » |
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leo
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #68 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 11:25am » |
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on Sep 28th, 2010, 9:45am, clojure wrote:| Oh no. Something stopped because of me. |
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Actually I had stalled long before you started your project, so no worries 
Regarding the picture credits, I think I'd prefer the Rimbit character and pictures to remain within the Arimaa community. I'll explain why later, it's related to the growingly unscrupulous behavior of the companies, big and small, toward artists.
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #69 on: Sep 29th, 2010, 9:18pm » |
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If anyone is interested making a translation for the tutorial, please inform me or send private message. There is not proper localization file yet, but if you translate from the top of the page to down with occasional marking where it belongs, I can handle the rest. Or you can just take html file and edit it.
Here is example translation if Finnish players want to show it to children or grand parent: Tutorial
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| « Last Edit: Sep 29th, 2010, 9:18pm by clojure » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #70 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 12:29pm » |
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I finally checked out your tutorial, clojure. It looks very cool. Of course there are many things it doesn't explain, but that is a feature, not a bug. Many people want to sit down and play rather than reading instructions. I'm afraid that we do people a disservice by insisting that they know all the rules before they start to play, when in fact one can play a fun game of Arimaa knowing only a small subset of the rules. Thus your tutorial is serving a great purpose.
The only serious suggestion for improvement I have is that the starting position be changed. On the one hand I agree that it would be too much explanation to inform the players that they can arrange their pieces arbitrarily, but you don't have to add any explanation to convey additional information. Simply by randomizing the opening position, you could give the impression of variability.
If your setup has all rabbits on the back rank, people will assume that all rabbits must be on the back rank. If your setup is symmetrical, people will assume that the setup must be symmetrical. If Silver has the same setup as Gold, people will assume that it is mandatory for the two players to have the same setup. In contrast, if the two setups are random and different from each other, people will assume that Arimaa setups are random, which is still false, but closer to the truth than the impression you currently give. You could therefore convey more information without having to explain anything more.
One minor detail: it should be "Learn by playing" rather than "Learn by play".
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| « Last Edit: Oct 12th, 2010, 12:42pm by Fritzlein » |
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #71 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 12:39pm » |
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Thanks for the suggestion. I don't really have objections to it. Only thing is that some people might think that automatic random setup is part of the game. I might have to add a small explanation.
When I feel like it, I write a complete tutorial page for those that like more explicit, total rules.
I actually was wondering whether it was "learn by play(ing)". Good to know!
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Fritzlein
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #72 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 12:42pm » |
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on Oct 12th, 2010, 12:39pm, clojure wrote:| Only thing is that some people might think that automatic random setup is part of the game. I might have to add a small explanation. |
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Why would you have to add an explanation then as opposed to now? The situation would be more clear then, so it needs more explanation? Right now you give a very wrong impression that you don't explain at all. It is an improvement to give a somewhat wrong impression that you still don't explain at all. I like leaving off explanations for the purpose of your tutorial.
If you also want to convey the information "this is a reasonably good setup", then just randomize between aaaa's 192 options (subtracting symmetry): four choices for left rabbits (omar, 99of9, Fritzlein, mistre), four choices for right rabbits, four ways to have cats and dogs split while occupying the typical rabbit squares the rabbits aren't in, elephant front center, three choices left for camel, horses fill last two holes. But this is more work for you; a random setup is good enough and easier to implement.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 12th, 2010, 12:45pm by Fritzlein » |
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #73 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 12:43pm » |
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You assume that the current state is how I intend it to be forever i.e. It bothered me but hadn't figured out the proper way to solve it.
Other than that, I agree that current state is worse in getting wrong impression.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 12th, 2010, 12:45pm by clojure » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #74 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 12:49pm » |
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Fair enough. I actually like the totally minimal explanation, and think you shouldn't add to it. There are already plenty of places to get the full rules such as Wikipedia, WikiBooks, Omar's tutorial, and the community video. You are (presently) filling a different niche, which I like. It's all on one screen.
Maybe situational pop-up text like "you must complete a push" wouldn't clutter the screen or require more up-front reading. It's amenable to many people to learn more rules while they are playing. But that's extra difficult to engineer smoothly.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 12th, 2010, 12:50pm by Fritzlein » |
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