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Topic: player of the month (Read 11671 times) |
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omar
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Re: player of the month
« Reply #45 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 4:05pm » |
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Thanks for pointing out that bug Karl. I've fixed it now.
Wow, it looks like this might already be a record breaking month for H-H games.
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Fritzlein
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Re: player of the month
« Reply #46 on: Apr 28th, 2005, 5:54pm » |
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Actually, I do think the competition will get wild and wooly. And it will be a great service to Arimaa to have more human-human games, because we will be teaching each other directly, in a sense. For example, the theorectical discussion about the value of Gold attacking around behind a trap won't be furthered by human vs bot games, because a bot will always give the same response. Humans, on the other hand, will try various ways of preventing the around-the-back-attack and/or they will counter-attack as in the recent Robinson vs. 99of9 game. Eventually we will probably reach a consensus on the best thing to do, and will have deepened our collective understanding in a way that wouldn't have happened from a thousand human vs bot games.
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Fritzlein
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Re: player of the month
« Reply #47 on: Apr 29th, 2005, 10:19am » |
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Omar, this is a minor point, but it seems that the prospective Player of the Month calculator is doing the tiebreak incorrectly. The rules say that the first one to reach the same score will win in case of a tie, but right now Arimanator with 13 points is listed ahead of JDB, even though JDB got up to 13 points first.
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99of9
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Re: player of the month
« Reply #48 on: May 1st, 2005, 8:56am » |
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on Apr 17th, 2005, 7:45pm, omar wrote:
Hi Omar, this is probably a totally obvious comment, but the POTM evaluation method on the link from the forum has not changed over now that it is May.
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Fritzlein
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Re: player of the month
« Reply #49 on: May 4th, 2005, 3:54pm » |
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It's a good thing Omar didn't put up the new P1 and P2 bots until after the revised Player of the Month rules took effect. There are now 22 bots available for regular play. And you thought beating 14 in a row was a hassle...
Anyway, the proliferation of different versions of bots makes it all the more clear that human vs. bot games should not count at all towards the Player of the Month contest. Power to the people!
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omar
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Re: player of the month
« Reply #50 on: May 5th, 2005, 6:46pm » |
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on Apr 29th, 2005, 10:19am, Fritzlein wrote:| Omar, this is a minor point, but it seems that the prospective Player of the Month calculator is doing the tiebreak incorrectly. The rules say that the first one to reach the same score will win in case of a tie, but right now Arimanator with 13 points is listed ahead of JDB, even though JDB got up to 13 points first. |
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You're right. Fixed it now.
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99of9
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Gnobby's creator (player #314)
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Re: player of the month
« Reply #51 on: May 28th, 2005, 4:19am » |
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Well I must say, I think Omar's changed POTM has been a great success. It's much more exciting now from a spectator's point of view (I wasn't really aiming for it myself this month).
The wild and wooliness has only just begun. There are 3 players within 2 points of each other with only days to go!
(And, incidentally, none of the 3 have played both their games against me - so there are more points available this weekend!)
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| « Last Edit: May 28th, 2005, 4:20am by 99of9 » |
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omar
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Re: player of the month
« Reply #52 on: May 28th, 2005, 6:01am » |
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Wow, definitly a lot of HvH games this month.
Thanks to Paul and Karl for initiating the this discussion and everyone else who provided comments and suggestions.
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PMertens
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Re: player of the month
« Reply #53 on: May 28th, 2005, 9:36am » |
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its a shame that 15s games dont count .... 
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Fritzlein
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Re: player of the month
« Reply #54 on: May 28th, 2005, 7:46pm » |
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on Apr 23rd, 2005, 11:04am, Arimanator wrote:From the next month on when people new to this game or not will connect to this site they'll be most likely to get invited in a game instead of sadly play a couple of games against a bot and that can only profit to the cause of arimaa as a whole  Two thumbs up Omar for a swell idea |
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I agree with you exactly Arimanator. It's a great feature of the new rules that new players will get invited to a game by humans right away instead of having to only play bots. It's good for Arimaa as a whole. I'm afraid I won't be winning Player of the Month this month, and not very often in the future either unless I go back to always-on Internet access, but anyway my hat is off to Omar for the great rule changes.
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PMertens
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Re: player of the month
« Reply #55 on: May 29th, 2005, 2:24am » |
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of course kudos to omar
and lots of kudos to Fritzl, who helped to bring down the old version even if it was secure 30$ each month.
(noone else did beat all bots with this clockwork precision)
I like playing games for the fun of playing (especially strategy games)
Naturally I am not the best player (or most successful) simply because I dont play for victory or points or money or rank but for fun.
That means that I get beaten far to often but still enjoy a good spanking and I have even more fun beating someone who does not like losing (Ok, I am mean)
I would never complain about someone "cheating" or "exploiting a weakness".
If this weakness exists not only in my opinion but in the opinion of the majority, then I will point it out and discuss this and there will be rules to be changed.
If I am the only one who sees the problem then I might not have pointed it out strong enough - meaning not with strong words but with strong arguments.
Now ... what is a cheat/weakness ?
Beating a bot over and over with the same method, just to collect points ?
Beating weak bots over and over so you dont lose and slowly collect points ?
Playing much higher rated bots, because losing wont cost you a thing but if you win then the bot will go down in rating (which might be annoying for higher rated players ) ?
Playing noobs ?
Playing simul games because your opponents are no challenge ?
Winning all the games you are playing ?
I just dont think that any of the above can be seen as a "cheat"
The rules and possibilities are just the same for everyone.
Just because someone is superman it does not mean he has to give you an advantage !
Brazil does not play soccer with metal-backpacks and a top arimaa-player can collect points from anyone he wants.
Naturally a game against a sub 1600 player is rarely a challenge - but if we (Yes, I still count myself to the top-players :-P) choose to do so then its ok. Its our time.
If we give the opponents hints how to improve its even better.
Remember when you where still low ranking !
We all played you and you liked it - even if you stood no chance. So why not play with other noobs (this term might not apply to you anymore )
If I count right then you got 22 games and robinson got 18 - but 7 more points.
The way I see it he did win because he was just better this month and you probably will get far more out of your games next month (you got 11 games with just 1 point ... prolong those games to 2 points and you got it )
Ah hell, I am to tired to write more
IT's JUST A GAME (and 30$ are and always will be peanuts)
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robinson
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Re: player of the month
« Reply #56 on: May 29th, 2005, 4:16am » |
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so pat here the official statment from the accused.
after losing this award so stupid in the last month i said to myself that i definetly want to win this time ( and thats not about this 30 dollars, but nevertheless i cant say "no" to your lovely offer so i will send you my adress per email )
in the biginning of the month i tryed to play only players which are near me. but after some days being alone in a lonely gameroom i realized that i will have no chance ever win this contest when i am only playing the top. you can count the top players who are online constantly. i tryed to play them all.
so i rememberd how i started this game. and i think the biggest reason why i am one of the top players now ( i think i can say this ) was the games were i have been "cheated" by the top. you can watch my first games vs Paul, karl or toby... and of course all the advices by these players after "kicking I disagree
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and isnt it a big honour for a new player to play with one of the top in other sports you have to pay very much money to get a chance like this. and anyway if you mean that you doesnt want this chance( and i can see no reason for ) you doesnt have to accept my invite so...
i think it is a progress were both sides are winning:
i get my points
and you can learn a lot by playing or from some nice tipps if you want because i am always open to talk about the games i have played.
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99of9
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Re: player of the month
« Reply #57 on: May 29th, 2005, 6:15am » |
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on May 29th, 2005, 3:20am, Arimanator wrote:| Come on! that guy barely knew the rules he was just playing weak bots for less than a week and all of a sudden he's been offered to play 2 45s games with alternate colors against the 3rd strongest player, here. Am I the only one who can see the obvious? |
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I agree that it is obvious that robinson wanted this to count for player of the month (45s alternating colours). But that itself does not make a game "cheap".
I also agree that there was very little chance of robinson losing those games, blue22 is quite new to the game, and robinson is a very good player. I agree that this may seem to cheapen the contest a little. But, to be perfectly honest, I have over the years played a number of games with very little chance of losing. It is a natural part of teaching a beginner to play. It is also just nice to meet people with similar interests to me. POTM didn't exist for some of those games, and for others I got 0 ratings points, so I was lucky enough to escape your ire. Similarly when I began I played a number of games where I did not have much chance of winning, against omar, clauchau, and naveed. It's a natural part of the way I learn to play any game to always challenge myself as much as possible. Perhaps this is true for blue22 also, he is certainly proceeding up the ranks nice and quickly.
This may seem rude, and I certainly wouldn't have said it if you hadn't made such an unsportsmanlike fuss: On a plain reading of the opponents you have both got on your POTM list, I would say that robinson's opponents were generally higher rated / more skillful. Not only that, I would say that you have earned 3 points from at least one game "cheaper" than blue22, namely lihanzo who has not yet notched up a win against shallowblue! blue22 had at least beaten arimaazilla and arimaazon. Perhaps lihanzo invited you, I don't know. But my reading of the opponent's lists is that robinson took on a very strong field overall in this month's competition.
Also remember Omar's answer when I predicted that this exact issue would be even worse in YOUR proposed system of rules:
Quote:| We might have new players to the site getting invited by a lot of expericenced players for an easy game. But again I don't see anything wrong with someone who does that a lot and wins the contest. The new players might get a chance to chat and learn something on a personal level about Arimaa from an experienced player. I think overall it's a good thing. |
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Perhaps you could have mentioned at the time that you disagreed with Omar's opinion so vehemently.
Finally, again I hope this is not too rude: I think you need to be a bit more respectful of the friendly and nice community that plays arimaa. You have blown up (and sometimes subsequently apologised) many times on this forum, taking many things too personally or too impatiently and generally been too easily offended (in my opinion). Just relax, we don't have anything against you, but we may grow weary if you pick too many fights.
Arimaa is a place where friendly competition goes on. People may unwittingly tread on one another's toes or disappoint one another once in a while. However generally there is an air of courtesy, forbearance, friendliness, forgiveness, and dare I say it: love. In my personal life I find all of these to be necessary for good relationships and communities.
I don't think it was a good idea in this instance to personally attack robinson for trying hard to win the contest. Instead it would be more constructive to discuss possible ways to make the rules or guidelines better to ensure the contest is not "cheap" in your opinion. Furthermore it may be more sportsmanlike to delay such a discussion until a month that you are not sitting in second place. Game players need to learn to be good winners and good losers.
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| « Last Edit: May 29th, 2005, 6:24am by 99of9 » |
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99of9
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Re: player of the month
« Reply #58 on: May 29th, 2005, 9:04am » |
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I will need to reply again at a later date because I do not have time to fully do justice to your post, but I would like to make a few points now:
1) My understanding of this new contest is that the whole idea is to play lots of serious games. Therefore I would not consider it a "cheat" if you had played 9 more games, I would have considered it a very good attempt at the contest. In fact as it is you have already done a much better job at the contest than me for example, that is why I did not even consider myself as a candidate. I was never accusing you of "playing more games than you should"... that is the whole point of the contest!!!
2) I was instead saying that your specific accusation against robinson (about 2 games against blue22), was even more true about one of your games.
3) You accuse me of also making a personal attack on you about golden cadillacs. I will have to review what I said later, but for now can I say that my response was ALSO figurative. I do not really believe that you have a golden cadillac. I'm sorry if you felt I ridiculed your position - I will have a look some day soon and clarify my position for you. Remember though that attacking someone's point of view is different to attacking their personal integrity/"cheapness".
4) In that context I certainly did not tell you not to "shoot your mouth off". When it is in the realm of points of view and opinions, I think the more the better. Only when it gets personal do I worry.
5) "Other weak opponents ... megamau" No. I never said you played *weak* opponents, I just said relative to robinson's list, his list was *strongER*. Think of it not as a criticism of you, but as supporting the idea that robinson took the contest seriously and was not trying to exploit the rules. If you believe your opponents were on the whole stronger, I am happy to try to average ratings, but that was my visual estimate.
6) About games you declined. Don't worry, I don't think anyone considers that rude - it is natural that many invites will be declined.
7) I am sorry to hear that your health has not been well this month. I wish you well getting better.
 I do not think that the person with the higher rating should get the prize (esp in POTM where Omar has clearly specified that that is not the objective). I am not defending robinson because of an "aristocratic assumption", since I do not hold that assumption. I am defending robinson because I think he has been unfairly victimised. Am I right that the term aristocratic is heavily loaded in your culture? Should I be concerned for my neck?
9) I encourage you to "want the prize more than him" next month. That would generate even more serious games, and make arimaa even more interesting. But of course if your job prevents you from doing this, I totally understand.
10) About leaving his games to the final week of the month: Is this the fundamental essense of your complaint?? That is a common tactic in the POTM game. It was used quite a lot in the previous incarnation of the contest because the rules rewarded late players. I do not think there's any problem with this tactic. I guess the lesson for the frontrunner is that no buffer is ever big enough .
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| « Last Edit: May 29th, 2005, 9:11am by 99of9 » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: player of the month
« Reply #59 on: May 29th, 2005, 9:31am » |
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Sportsmanship is obviously a very subjective concept, and different people will have different opinions about it. For example, Omar feels it is good sportsmanship to never resign and play to the end of every game. In contrast, I feel that it can be good sportsmanship to resign in a lost position, because it shows respect for the opponent and says "I believe you are good enough to win from here even if I play my best." In spite of this difference of opinion, I no longer resign games on this server, because I respect Omar's request that games be played out to the end.
Perhaps the best thing in this situation is for Omar to say what he envisions for the Player of the Month contest so that we can all respect that. Here is my opinion:
1) It is good if everyone tries to play as many games as possible that count for the contest even up to the last minute. It is more exciting if the contest isn't decided until the last few days or even until the very last day. Furthermore, if competitors keep seeking out new opponents down to the last minute, then the Arimaa community will see more human-human games in more different combinations, which is also a good thing.
2) It is good if high-rated players invite low-rated players to games, and good if experienced players invite new players to games. I think it feels much more welcoming to have games against humans than against bots only, because it gives folks a chance to chat and ask questions. Also it is good to have different experience levels mixing up because newcomers learn faster that way. In fact, experienced players learn a lot that way too. (For example , Kamikazeking taught me a lesson just now when he wiped the floor with me in our lightning game. )
In general, Arimanator, I see no reason why you should hold yourself back from inviting every player on line to a game, and no reason why you shouldn't always ask for a rematch. I can't see why that would unsporting in any way. It would be great for the Arimaa community if you would play as many different people as possible, and it would be even better if several of us were all doing this at the same time because we were all trying to win the award.
This month has been the best month ever for human-human play, thanks it large part to the Player of the Month contest, and for my part I only want more and more of what I have seen. There are still two days left in the contest, and I hope you play as many games as you can at the last minute to challenge Robinson for the title. Next month I hope we all play so many games that 75 points will only be good enough for second place!
That's my take on sportsmanship for Player of the Month, but I'm happy to hear different opinions from everyone, especially Omar if this isn't what he had in mind.
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