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Topic: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006 (Read 7380 times) |
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Swynndla
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1821
Posts: 235
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Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
« Reply #45 on: Apr 21st, 2006, 4:35pm » |
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Ahhh yea Ryan, you're right!
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Swynndla
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1821
Posts: 235
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Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
« Reply #46 on: Apr 21st, 2006, 6:30pm » |
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bot_Bomb2005Blitz
Game 29317
45 moves as Gold 
Omar was advertising how computers struggle with arimaa, saying that the best bots could be beaten at blitz speeds. What about the best bots being beaten at blitz speeds plus a 3 move handicap for the human player?
(ok I was using an anti-bot technique, but still, these techniques only exist because computers struggle with arimaa!)
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IdahoEv
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1753
Gender: 
Posts: 405
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Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
« Reply #47 on: Apr 21st, 2006, 7:15pm » |
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Competition page updated. Consider me just totally astonished.
I considered making the contest say that if anyone beat the top bot with a 1-step handicap, then the game would continue starting from the bottom bot with a 2-step handicap. I didn't include that rule, thinking it would be completely irrelevant. In barely over 24 hours, I disagree
umption was disproven!
I can't even beat BombFast yet, much less with the handicap!
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Swynndla
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1821
Posts: 235
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Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
« Reply #48 on: Apr 22nd, 2006, 12:44am » |
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bot_Bomb2005CC
Game 29357
79 moves as gold (took 4 hours).
... I finally nailed it 
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Fritzlein
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #706
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Posts: 5928
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Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
« Reply #49 on: Apr 22nd, 2006, 9:31am » |
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on Apr 22nd, 2006, 12:44am, Swynndla wrote:bot_Bomb2005CC
Game 29357
79 moves as gold (took 4 hours).
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Nicely done. I think the moral of this story (besides that I am always too pessemistic about what can be achieved) is that it's a good idea to have ten-day contests rather than one-month contests. Now all that's left is a relatively boring task of trying to reduce the number of moves. (Unless someone wins faster with a different concept: that could be interesting.) I'm glad I don't have to wait 28 days to hear IdahoEv's next cool idea.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 22nd, 2006, 9:32am by Fritzlein » |
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IdahoEv
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1753
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Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
« Reply #50 on: Apr 22nd, 2006, 9:49am » |
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You guys are farkin' maniacs. Swynndla's done the impossible. 
Nathan, your penance for breaking my challenge is you have to teach me how to beat Bomb!
Okay so, sound off. Do you want to:
(1) continue the challenge re-starting from the bottom of the list with only two steps per turn (which had been in my original concept, but then I thought it was unnecessary because nobody would ever get very high with this challenge).
or
(2) leave you to the grueling task of fighting over the turn count vs. bot_Bomb2005CC for eight more days.
Nathan's opinion counts the most, as he is the current winner.
Fritz gets to wear a clown hat for predicting only 40 hours ago that nobody would get any higher than bot_ArimaaScoreP1.
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Arimanator
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1064
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Posts: 158
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Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
« Reply #51 on: Apr 22nd, 2006, 10:36am » |
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on Apr 22nd, 2006, 9:49am, IdahoEv wrote:You guys are farkin' maniacs. Swynndla's done the impossible.
Nathan, your penance for breaking my challenge is you have to teach me how to beat Bomb!
Okay so, sound off. Do you want to:
(1) continue the challenge re-starting from the bottom of the list with only two steps per turn (which had been in my original concept, but then I thought it was unnecessary because nobody would ever get very high with this challenge).
or
(2) leave you to the grueling task of fighting over the turn count vs. bot_Bomb2005CC for eight more days.
Nathan's opinion counts the most, as he is the current winner.
Fritz gets to wear a clown hat for predicting only 40 hours ago that nobody would get any higher than bot_ArimaaScoreP1. |
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Let's not jump to conclusions here. I am getting the hang of it and I think I can do it in a lot less in a couple of days.
Nathan didn't invent that concept, he just adapted the bait and tackle to which Bomb is particularly vulnerable, and in that area, that makes it the weakest bot. That's the only reason he's winnable that way. Several players analyzed that method a long time ago. In fact no other bot as a reaction nearly as stupid as Bomb when it comes to bait and tackle.
Pretending that he just came up with that method out of the blue is misguided at best and dishonest at worst.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 22nd, 2006, 10:49am by Arimanator » |
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chessandgo
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1889
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Posts: 1244
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Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
« Reply #52 on: Apr 22nd, 2006, 10:51am » |
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Nathan superstar
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Arimanator
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1064
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Posts: 158
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Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
« Reply #53 on: Apr 22nd, 2006, 11:05am » |
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on Apr 22nd, 2006, 9:31am, Fritzlein wrote:
...Unless someone wins faster with a different concept... |
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And since when does someone have to use a different concept in a bot bashing challenge? Where ever that rule has been applied in the past? Nathan didn't come up with that concept, by a long shot. Just because he's the first one to use it with 3 steps a move doesn't give him any proprietary rights. It never has in the past.
First 99 uses his imbecilic bot as a way to humiliate bot bashers and now you Fritz come up with that inane rule. What’s wrong with you guys?
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frostlad
Forum Senior Member
Arimaa player #1704
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Posts: 46
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Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
« Reply #54 on: Apr 22nd, 2006, 2:28pm » |
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I don't think that fritz was saying nathan owns the bait and tackle strategy.
I took his comment more as that the challenge isn't as interesting now that someone has beaten the top bot using 3 steps unless people go after bomb with a tactic that it isn't particularly vulnerable to.
I look at it sort of the same way. Beating bomb through blockading its elephant but in fewer moves would be very interesting to see, but I'm more interested in a game that is completely different.
I hope you can reduce the number of moves but I'm also interested to see if it is possible to beat bomb in three step turns without that tactic.
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nbarriga
Forum Guru
Almost retired Bot Developer
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Posts: 119
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Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
« Reply #55 on: Apr 22nd, 2006, 3:18pm » |
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on Apr 22nd, 2006, 9:49am, IdahoEv wrote:
(1) continue the challenge re-starting from the bottom of the list with only two steps per turn (which had been in my original concept, but then I thought it was unnecessary because nobody would ever get very high with this challenge).
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If you decide to include this rule, i just beat arimaascoreP1 using 2-steps per move with gold in 38, at game 29471.
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Fritzlein
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #706
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Posts: 5928
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Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
« Reply #56 on: Apr 22nd, 2006, 3:30pm » |
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on Apr 22nd, 2006, 11:05am, Arimanator wrote:and now you Fritz come up with that inane rule. What’s wrong with you guys?
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Arimaanator, please separate me from the things that I say. I don't mind if you disagree with the things I post here. I don't mind if you say that I am being inconsistent. I can even tolerate it if you say that my ideas are inane.
However, when you imply that something is wrong with me that is a personal attack. You have made a comment about me, rather than a comment about my ideas.
Do you accept this distinction? It is a very important distinction to me. I respect you as an individual. I don't post personal comments about you, even when I strongly disagree with what you say. Are you willing to respect me as well? In particular, are you willing to disagree with me (when we disagree) without saying anything personal about me?
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Fritzlein
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #706
Gender:
Posts: 5928
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Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
« Reply #57 on: Apr 22nd, 2006, 3:34pm » |
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on Apr 22nd, 2006, 9:49am, IdahoEv wrote:Okay so, sound off. Do you want to:
(1) continue the challenge re-starting from the bottom of the list with only two steps per turn (which had been in my original concept, but then I thought it was unnecessary because nobody would ever get very high with this challenge).
or
(2) leave you to the grueling task of fighting over the turn count vs. bot_Bomb2005CC for eight more days.
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I don't think it would be very fair to change the rule after all the effort that people have put into beating bot_Bomb2005CC with three steps. Both Swynndla and Arimaanator spent hours on that task, which we could have easily verified was unnecessary (under than changed rules) with a couple of 2-step games against ArimaaScoreP1.
Yes, it's boring to have it be just a contest of shaving off moves, but it better for it to be boring than to move the goalposts midgame. My previous post about the "moral of the story" was supposed to say that it is good to keep contests short in case they are busted early, not that it is good to change the contest if someone busts it.
If you don't like move-shaving, then you can always remove that as a tiebreaker in any future bot-bashing contests you propose.
Quote:| Fritz gets to wear a clown hat for predicting only 40 hours ago that nobody would get any higher than bot_ArimaaScoreP1. |
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And richly I deserve the clown hat, particularly since I already had a history of undersestimating what is possible. Back when PMertens and Arimaanator were doing their amazing bot-bashing exploits, I was forever predicting "X is impossible", only to see one of them do it within days or even hours. When will I learn?
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| « Last Edit: Apr 22nd, 2006, 3:52pm by Fritzlein » |
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Fritzlein
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #706
Gender:
Posts: 5928
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Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
« Reply #58 on: Apr 22nd, 2006, 3:41pm » |
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on Apr 22nd, 2006, 10:36am, Arimanator wrote:| Let's not jump to conclusions here. I am getting the hang of it and I think I can do it in a lot less in a couple of days. |
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If you can shave off even one move from the record, and it holds up until the deadline, then I think you should win the contest, no matter what strategies and tactics you use.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 22nd, 2006, 3:47pm by Fritzlein » |
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Arimanator
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1064
Gender:
Posts: 158
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Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
« Reply #59 on: Apr 22nd, 2006, 4:56pm » |
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I just met the challenge with Bomb2005CC in 66 moves with gold game 29481 by immobilization.
In my opinion beat a weaker bot with two steps a move is a completely different challenge like apples and oranges. It would be unfair to change the rules now that the challenge has been met by IMMOBILIZATION with the stronger bot and you can see that if I used the same concept as Nathan, my application of it is noticeably different.
A three step contest is NOT a two step contest. The weaker bots are NOTHING compared to the stronger ones. I hope I got my point across.
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